Sky News AM Agenda
Ashleigh Gillon and Mark Arbib
20 April 2009
8:30am
EO & E
Subjects: illegal arrivals, pre-mixed drinks, double dissolution, Julie Bishop
ASHLEIGH GILLON:
Hello and welcome to AM Agenda, I’m Ashleigh Gillon. The Defence force has released footage showing the immediate aftermath of the deadly boat explosion that killed at least five asylum seekers last week. The vision shows Navy sailors attempting to rescue people from the water as smoke billows from the burning boat. But the vision doesn’t show what happened in the minutes before the blast and the government is still refusing to say what information it has about the cause of the explosion.
DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER JULIA GILLARD:
We want to make sure all information is accurate information. I understand that people are thirsty for information and they want it as soon as it is available but we can’t give you the conclusions of a police investigation until the police have done their work. The police investigating it are the people who are going to be able to establish the facts of the matter, so we need to leave it in their hands until that investigation is concluded.
GILLON:
With memories of the children overboard affair still very fresh, the government’s cautious approach is understandable but the opposition has used the governments silence to raise concerns about a cover up.
OPPOSITION LEADER MALCOLM TURNBULL:
As every hour goes on without the facts being made clear, we get more and more suspicious that there is some sort of cover up going on. The Naval personnel that witnessed the events on the boat have all come back to Australia. They have all been interviewed by the Police. It is unbelievable that the Government doesn’t know precisely what has happened, so all we can say is that Julia Gillard and Chris Evans’ stonewalling is because they don’t want to tell the people the truth. We are entitled to know the facts.
GILLON:
Some anonymous Navy and government sources haven’t been as cautious as senior ministers. Media outlets are reporting that the asylum seekers did douse the boat in petrol and threaten to set it on fire because they were concerned the vessel would be sent back to Indonesia. But these anonymous sources claim that the actual explosion was an accident, let’s go straight to our panel now. Joining me here in Sydney is the Labor Senator Mark Arbib. Good morning.
MARK ARBIB:
Good morning.
GILLON:
And also from Melbourne, the Liberal Senator Mitch Fifield. Hello.
MITCH FIFIELD:
Good morning Ashleigh.
GILLON:
Mark Arbib let’s start with you. The WA Premier and now these so-called senior government sources who are of course, remaining anonymous, are telling us that the boat was doused in petrol. Why can’t the government tell us what it knows about the cause of this tragedy?
ARBIB:
Well look I think that Malcolm Turnbull, in those comments, got it right when he said Australians are entitled to know the facts. And that’s what we are about, actually establishing the facts, and the government has been rigid in terms of what it said, consistent in what it’s said from day one which was: police investigation, you’ve got the Australian Federal Police and the Northern Territory Police investigating. And until they come out with a report and until they put forward findings, it’s just speculation and that speculation is extremely unhelpful when you are dealing with an incident that has caused major fatalities. And this is a terrible tragedy and we’ve got to get it right in terms of what happened and why it happened. And to speculate the same way the WA Premier did on day one I just thought was irresponsible. So the government is being responsible in what it is doing and once the facts are there, obviously everyone will find out. We all want to know, I want to know what happened. But before the police have done their investigation it is useless speculating.
GILLON:
Mitch Fifield can you understand that argument? Is it worth calling on the government to pre-empt what of course is now a police investigation?
FIFIELD:
Well no one is calling on the government to pre-empt any investigation, but in the absence of the facts, you will have speculation. And that is why the practise has developed over the last five or ten years at both a state and federal level that whenever there is a natural disaster, a crime, a military action, or some other event, the relevant authorities give continual updates. And we see it every night on the evening news in front of a crime scene. The police will always give an update on the information that they know. We saw it with the Victorian bushfires with daily updates on what the authorities knew at the time and we see it whenever there is a military engagement, whether it be a minor or a major one. And that’s the best approach, to give facts that are known. Now we are not calling upon the government to speculate, we’re not calling on the government to talk about things that they don’t know. All we are asking for is the government to give the facts as they’re known, which is the practise which as I say has developed at state and federal levels in a number of different scenarios. And the reason why the government isn’t giving information is because they’re embarrassed at their policy failure, they are embarrassed at what has clearly been a by-product of the softening of their asylum seeker policy.
GILLON:
Well look we will look at the details of that policy in a minute but first Mark Arbib, of course, it seems like the government is treading very cautiously because the children overboard affair is really the background that this incident is being played out against. Are you worried that voters may think that the government’s handling has been cagey or indeed a cover-up like Malcolm Turnbull suggests?
ARBIB:
Well I think what we are doing is being consistent. We said we need to establish what happened and why it happened and the best way to do that is a police investigation. So we’ve been upfront and honest about that and when the information is there, obviously we want Australians to know, we want to know ourselves exactly what happened. It’s important for future operations that we understand exactly what happened. But at the same time as that, speculation in this sort of event is just unhelpful. I mean there are major fatalities here. We have the defence force doing their job, we’ve got hospital staff, we’ve got emergency staff doing their job and the police are doing their job and that’s to investigate this properly, a thorough investigation, we’ve got two authorities doing that and it is going to take some time, and people need to be just a bit patient.
GILLON:
Well yesterday on Sky News the Liberal frontbencher Peter Dutton went as far as to say that the government is feeding propaganda to Australian’s over this incident. Here’s some of what he had to say.
SHADOW HEALTH MINISTER PETER DUTTON:
They have deliberately withheld information, they have been evasive, they have been hiding behind this, to say they are waiting for a police investigation, to suggest – to suggest to the Australian people that Defence haven’t been providing ongoing briefings to the Minister, to the National Security Cabinet is an offensive statement for the Government to make and it reflects poorly on Defence – and it shouldn’t – because Defence would be providing regular updates to the Government they would have information at hand on an hourly basis and they are withholding that from the public.
GILLON:
Mark Arbib why do you think it did take three days to release this Defence footage that we are seeing today and why do you think the footage showing the minutes leading up to the blast wasn’t released as well, does that strike you as odd?
ARBIB:
Look I have no idea, but this is a huge investigation that needs to happen. It is a very serious incident. I mean as I said and I’ve repeated it: people lost their lives. And all investigations take time and there’s got to be a process and we’ve got to allow the police, and the authorities, scope and flexibility to do that sort of work without hysteria and wild speculation.
GILLON:
Well ok, looking at the policies the Rudd Government has introduced since it came to power. Would it concern you if the government did receive advice from federal agencies suggesting that the changes to the immigration laws in this country would actually see an influx of asylum seekers here, those of course that reports we’ve seen unfolding over the weekend?
ARBIB:
Well I mean that was an unsubstantiated report so I don’t know if they actually exist or not.
GILLON:
But would it concern you if that was the case?
ARBIB:
Well this is in terms of people smuggling and this issue, it’s a huge issue. And it’s constantly evolving and it’s not just happening here domestically in Australia, it’s happening across the world. I mean UNHCR have said there’s been throughout 2007-08 a 12% increase in asylum seekers. You’ve got push factors in terms of conflicts going on in Afghanistan, you’ve got conflicts going on in Sri Lanka and you’ve seen how bad the conflict in Sri Lanka has been in recent times. So this is always, people smuggling is always going to be there and the government’s position has constantly got to have to evolve to deal with it and we are spending a huge amount of money in terms of working with the Indonesian authorities, working with overseas authorities in terms of intelligence gathering and in terms of increasing resources. But also, right now, this government is spending more funds, putting more resources into border protection and surveillance than at any other time in Australia’s history. Any other time in our history. And that shows our commitment to strong border protection. I mean our position with the Coalition is, I mean we’ve heard what Mitch has had to say there and Malcolm Turnbull opportunistically was out yesterday, our position on border protection is identical, absolutely identical. The only change is we’ve got more resources going into it, going into it.
GILLON:
Alright well let’s get Mitch Fifield’s take on this. Mitch obviously the government line on this is that any increase in asylum seekers coming to our shores is due to push factors, that is increased violence in places like Afghanistan, I mean there are more people seeking asylum. Can you be confident though that Malcolm Turnbull’s argument is right and that these policies are to blame for more people coming here?
FIFIELD:
Yes I am sure. But I cannot believe that Mark Arbib just said that their policies are identical to ours.
ARBIB:
I said the border protection policies are identical.
FIFIELD:
That Labor’s are identical to ours.
ARBIB:
Except we are spending more
FIFIELD:
Labor went to the last election campaigning on the fact that they were going to soften our border protection arrangements, that they were going to abolish offshore processing, that they were going to abolish temporary protection visas. In August last year Chris Evans proudly trumpeted those two things. So the fact that Mark is now saying that our border protection policies are the same, I think there will be a lot of members of the latte-left who are very disappointed to hear that Mark because that’s certainly not what you were saying before the election. That’s certainly not what Chris Evans was saying in August last year. So I am absolutely astounded by that and I am sure that wasn’t actually on your talking points to say that Mark, that’s very much off-message for your side of politics. But it’s clear, yes, there are certainly push factors. But there are also pull factors. People smugglers need a product to sell and this government has given the people smugglers a terrific product to sell. And you don’t have to go any further than the Department of Immigration website, click on the icon above the temporary protection visa fact sheet and that goes into great detail as to how temporary protection visas have been abolished and what the practical effect of that is. So it’s extremely disingenuous of the government to only talk about push factors. There are pull factors. You don’t have to go any further than the Department of Immigration website. And again Mark, I’ve got to say I can’t believe that you said our border protection policies are identical. They’re not.
GILLON:
Given you’re arguments though, will you be going to the next election wanting to bring back temporary protection visas and the Pacific Solution, is that part of the Liberal policy?
FIFIELD:
Well in relation to the Pacific Solution, offshore processing is actually still happening. It’s happening at Christmas Island and that was one of the issues, when Chris Evans announced the closure of Naru and the closure of Manus Island, he didn’t mention that Christmas Island was coming online and was going to be taking over, because he wanted to send a message to the latte-left, to Labor supporters, that it was the end of the Pacific Solution. What that did, however, by failing to mention Christmas Island, was it sent a message to the people smugglers that Australia was getting soft, which is indeed the case. This government has had a softening of language, a softening of resolve and a softening of its policy.
GILLON:
But back to my question, would the Liberal Party go to the next election wanting to reopen those processing centres to places like Naru, and on the TPV issue, is that now part of the Liberal Party’s policy?
FIFIELD:
Well there is not the need, as I said, to reopen Naru, to reopen Manus Island. For one thing, those agreements are no longer in place, for another, the Christmas Island facility is there, is operating and is a facility that we built and which was always due to come online. In relation to temporary protection visas, my personal view is that, yes, they should come back. But we are a parliamentary party and ultimately these things will be resolved by our Shadow Cabinet and by our party room.
ARBIB:
But there we have it. I mean we have all this heat and smoke surrounding our policies are weaker, and pretty much we’ve just gone to Mitch Fifield they’re not going back to Naru, they’re not going back to the Pacific Solution, that’s Mitch’s personal opinion about temporary protection visas, it’s not the Liberal Party position. So there’s very, very little difference in terms of the work we are doing on border protection, and processing, and what they are putting forward. And what is their policy? I mean it is about time Malcolm Turnbull actually came forward and put forward what he thinks we should be doing, because when the government made its changes, when the government made its changes, there was silence on the other side. Silence. And in fact Sharman Stone, the opposition spokesperson…
FIFIELD:
No that’s not true, that’s not true…
GILLON:
Yeah I don’t think the opposition…Sharman Stone has been speaking about this for some months now…
ARBIB:
Sharman Stone, the opposition’s spokesperson, well she actually supported, if you look at what came through the parliamentary committee in terms of migration…
FIFIELD:
No, that’s not true.
ARBIB:
She actually supported. Mitch I’ve got it right here so I’m happy to go through it, but she supported…
FIFIELD:
Sharman Stone did not support it.
ARBIB:
Sharman Stone supported what we were doing. But can I just go back because…
FIFIELD:
That was a parliamentary committee…Sharman Stone did not…
ARBIB:
Well Mitch I’ve got the quote right here. She did mate, but let’s just go forward for a sec because I want to come back to something Mitch said. In terms of border protection, there is no difference. I mean we still have the patrols out there, we’ve got more out there, the difference has been in terms of the processing, and that is where and we’ve done that more humanely.
GILLON:
(inaudible)…Ok so you say that this is a more humane policy. So doesn’t it flow that if people think Australia now has a more humane policy that more people would like to come here? Because of that fact alone.
CROSSTALK
ARBIB:
I don’t know if you saw on the news on Saturday night, they were talking to some of the asylum seekers and actually said to them, do you know about Kevin Rudd’s policies and these asylum seekers said well we left when John Howard was still the Prime Minister. I mean they’re not sitting down in their war-torn countries actually going through policy documents, working out which countries policies have changed, which countries policies are better for them.
GILLON:
But people smugglers are operating these as businesses and surely as part of that business plan is marketing the sorts of policies that different countries have to encourage people to…
FIFIELD:
Exactly.
ARBIB:
These people are desperate. They just want to get out of a war torn country and start a better life. And if you look at the numbers, if that’s the case well then they are sending these asylum seekers to Italy, they are sending them to Greece, they are sending them to the United States, because when you compare the figures, you look at tens of thousands of people that are going to those countries, and the very small numbers, relative, that are coming here, then if that’s the case then the people smugglers are doing a better sell on Italy and a better sell on Greece than they are on Australia. The facts are that when people leave their country, they just want to get out, they want to start a better life. They are not looking around in terms of policies, they are looking around in terms of where is there a better opportunity and Australia is a better opportunity for anybody, if you look at our economy, you look at a chance here for anybody to make a life for themselves, it’s a great country. And that’s why people want to come here, its not the pull factors, it’s the push factors. You’ve seen the…
FIFIELD:
It’s both. It’s both.
ARBIB:
…conflicts in Afghanistan, you’ve seen the conflicts in Sri Lanka.
GILLON:
Well one big part of the problem most experts say is Indonesia, and for some time now the Australian Government, both the Howard Government and the Rudd Government has been putting pressure on Indonesia to try to change its laws, toughen them up against people smugglers. Mitch Fifield are you confident that we will see some changes now that the Rudd Government will be able to convince Indonesia that this is something that needs to happen and needs to happen quickly.
FIFIELD:
Well I hope so. We in office worked very closely with the Indonesian Government and we had some significant success. It is good to see that the Rudd Government is going to continue in that vein. We’ve got to look though at both push and pull factors. It’s not enough just to throw your hands up and say that there are global circumstances beyond our control, there are wars in far off lands beyond our control. That’s certainly true, but what we’ve got to focus on are the things that we can control. And we can to some extent help our Indonesian neighbours. Indonesia is the embarkation point for many of the people who seek to come to Australia, so we’ve certainly got to work with the Indonesians. But we’ve got to focus particularly on those things which are directly within our control. And that’s our own border protection. That’s Australia’s own policies. And there is no doubt that this government has weakened those. And there is no doubt that this government, through its language in the election campaign, and through Chris Evans announcement in August last year, was shouting loudly for all to hear, for all people smugglers to hear, that Australia was going to become a softer touch. Chris Evans was making clear that Australia’s border protection policies were being softened.
GILLON:
Ok I think you have both made your points, very quickly…
ARBIB:
Just one sec, I did promise I’d give you the Sharman Stone quote, Sharman Stone said on radio 2CM on 1st of December the day the report was released “Labor is very much echoing what we did,” when asked if she welcomed the reports recommendations she said “I do.” So I mean in terms of, there’s the evidence Mitch, you say we’ve weakened
FIFIELD:
Well which one? The report had many recommendations Mark…
ARBIB:
Well Mitch it just pretty much sounds like her, its sounds like she has supported it, I do, listen to the quotes Mitch
FIFIELD:
No Mark, look at Sharman Stone’s press release from August last year, the day Chris Evans made the announcement.
ARBIB:
This is a bit more recent.
GILLON:
I think we can wrap up this debate now, there are other issues we are going to get to after the break, like are we heading for an early election and why is the Liberal Party seemingly intent on airing its dirty laundry about internal tensions, stay with us.
BREAK
GILLON:
Welcome back to AM Agenda joining us on our panel of politicians this morning Mitch Fifield in Melbourne and Mark Arbib here with me in Sydney. Mark Arbib last week we learnt that the government is going to reintroduce its alcopops bill. Following that was a lot of speculation that this could lead to, could be the first trigger in the, the first step I guess towards a double dissolution early election. Is that something the government would be keen to do? Would it make sense for Kevin Rudd to go to the polls early when his approval rating is sky-high and before unemployment perhaps might get up into double digits?
ARBIB:
No one is even thinking about it. I mean we’ve got a long way to go, we’re only not even halfway into our term yet, and halfway through actually delivering the things we committed to at the last election. So there is still ages of this current term to play out. No one is even thinking about it in terms of the alcopop legislation, for us this is an issue about stopping binge drinking. We’ve talked about it incessantly and we are going to continue to because for us, we care about the issue, we actually want to make the social change. We believe that the legislation has been doing that, I mean you look at the figures, 35% decrease in alcopops and a decrease overall in spirits I think its 8%. They’re good figures, that’s solid. And when you talk to the experts, when you talk to the police and the AMA, health professionals, they agree with what we are doing and that is why we are going to continue it.
GILLON:
Well obviously the opposition doesn’t agree with what you are doing and doesn’t think that this is doing anything to tackle binge drinking, but Mitch Fifield, on the politics of this, do you think it was a smart move by the government to reintroduce this bill, firstly it buys them more time to try to convince the crossbenchers to get onboard and secondly it puts more pressure on Malcolm Turnbull in terms of raising even the prospect of any early election.
FIFIELD:
I don’t think it puts any pressure on Malcolm Turnbull. The legislation is bad, the policy is bad. The alcopops proposal was always a con and a sham. It was a tax grab dressed up as a health measure. I talk to many parents who tell me that their teenage kids who used to drink premixed drinks have switched to mixing their own. It’s not having an effect on behaviour, it doesn’t put any pressure on the opposition. But I think it would be a very brave government that would seek to call a double dissolution on the pretext of a higher tax on premixed drinks.
GILLON:
Mitch just finally on a completely different issue, every day over the past week or so we’ve opened our newspapers to see another story about internal bickering in the Liberal Party, more reports about plans to try to bring down Julie Bishop by this group of young turks and its been described as a range of things which I won’t go into. But is it frustrating for you to watch all of this coverage? Would your advice be to your colleagues to just shut up and move on and not try to make this such a big issue?
FIFIELD:
Well look I don’t know if there have been such gatherings, I certainly haven’t been invited to them, if there are. But look I totally support Julie, I think she is doing a great job and I think all of my colleagues should get in behind her.
GILLON:
But isn’t it a bit of a problem that obviously a lot of your colleagues are leaking a lot of dirt to journalists, this is just not a good look at all for the party.
FIFIELD:
Well it is important for all of us to keep our focus on the Labor Party, to keep our focus on things such as Labor’s appalling alcopops legislation that is just a tax grab, keep the focus on Labor’s asylum seeker policy which is encouraging people smugglers to do their evil trade. It is important that we focus on those issues.
GILLON:
Ok, and those are going to be the big issues for the rest of the week no doubt. Mark Arbib thank you for your time.
ARBIB:
Thanks.
GILLON:
And Mitch Fifield thank you for joining us from Melbourne as well.
ENDS