Transcript of
Senator Mitch Fifield
Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for
Disabilities, Carers and the Voluntary Sector
Sky News AM Agenda
Ashleigh Gillon and Mark Arbib
6 April 2009
8:30am
EO & E
Subjects: cash bonuses, the Budget, mortgage relief plan, PM’s outburst
ASHLEIGH GILLON:
Good morning and welcome to AM Agenda, I’m Ashleigh Gillon. Well more than 8 million Australians will be richer from this week when the Government starts delivering its cash bonuses in a bid to stimulate the economy. But will people actually spend the money or will they squirrel it away? And how can we judge the success or otherwise of the payments? Joining me now from Melbourne is Liberal Senator Mitch Fifield, good morning.
MITCH FIFIELD:
Good morning Ashleigh, how are you?
GILLON:
Well. And also, from Sydney the Labor Senator Mark Arbib, good morning.
MARK ARBIB:
Morning Ashleigh.
GILLON:
Mark Arbib let’s start with you. In your new role as Parliamentary Secretary for Government Service Delivery, no doubt you will be playing very close attention to making sure that these payments are rolled out as scheduled. I understand that most people will receive bonuses about Wednesday but there is a whole lot of Australians who could miss out because they have not launched a tax return yet?
ARBIB:
Well that is true, payments start rolling out from Wednesday and it is very important to get this money into the community as quickly as we can. We face a very severe global recession, we know that. And at the forefront of it, I mean the group that is feeling it most is obviously business, and we’ve got to get this money into the pockets of businesses so they can keep their doors open. And if business keeps their doors open that means people keep jobs and keep employed. So it’s extremely important that this money through the stimulus payments gets out the door and that’s something that the Government is focusing on, it is very, very important to our economy.
GILLON:
Mitch Fifield how confident are you that people will actually spend this extra cash and not just save it?
FIFIELD:
Not confident at all. I heard this morning on the radio a leading market economist saying that he predicted that 80% would be saved. Only 20% would be spent. But this is spending that the nation can’t afford and it’s spending that is not going to work. Kevin Rudd himself said that recession is inevitable. The whole point of the $42 billion spending spree was to avoid a recession. And the Prime Minister himself has said that it is inevitable that it will happen. We also know, on another account, that this money won’t work because Wayne Sawn has said that the Government is going to revise up the forecast for unemployment above 7%. So both the Prime Minister and the Treasurer concede that this package won’t work. And once this money is spent, once this $42 billion package is gone, there will not be a single new bridge, a single new road, a single new power station, a single new dam to show for that spending. This package will not add in any way to the productive capacity of the nation. It’s $42 billion for next to no gain.
ARBIB:
That is just absolute…
GILLON:
Senator Fifield…
ARBIB:
Sorry.
GILLON:
Senator Fifield does raise a very interesting point, Mark Arbib, in terms of how we actually judge this package. What benchmarks are there for success, do we look at retail sales figures over the next few months, if they don’t go up does that show that this package is failing? What benchmarks do you see that we should be judging this spending on?
ARBIB:
It’s quite amazing that the Coalition continues to attack the stimulus package. I mean they opposed it in the Parliament, opposed funding for education, opposed funding for roads, opposed funding for housing, so here we go again, and this is just the way they operate. And no solutions to the global recession, just come up with criticism. But in terms of this let’s look at the results that the first round of stimulus that we’ve already had. Let’s look at the retail figures. In terms of retail, retail spending in terms of December and January we’re well up, well up, we’re talking about 2% and 3% up on the past periods and that was relative I mean that was obviously partially due to the stimulus package…
FIFIELD:
Unemployment’s up too.
ARBIB:
We can also look at…
GILLON:
In February of course those retail sales figures were well down, they were much worse that most analysts had expected down 2%.
ARBIB:
Yeah but, that is true but they were still 2% up on where they were in November which is before the stimulus package was in place so overall I think that shows that there has been a stimulatory effect in the retail sector. And we’ve got to remember about retail in Australia it employs 1.5 million people so it is hugely important that that sector has a stimulus and that has flow on effects right through to all the distributors through to ah, the truck drivers, who are delivering the goods etc. That’s not all the stimulus package is, it’s not just the cash payments. Two-thirds of the stimulus package is in terms of infrastructure. At the moment we are rolling out the largest school modernisation program the country has ever seen. We are talking about between 50,000 and 20,000 going to every school across the country, building a new hall or library or classroom in every primary school. I mean this is just the start. Mitch says that there is nothing productive going on, well all this money going into education that is hugely productive. What about roads? $500 million going out into roads. I mean it goes on and on and on the amount of money that is going into infrastructure…
FIFIELD:
No new roads.
GILLON:
Senator Fifield just looking specifically at these cash payments. What would need to be the results of these payments that would convince you that they have actually done their job, done their aim of stimulating the economy in the short term?
FIFIELD:
Well, the sole measure for this package is jobs. It’s the unemployment rate. If this $42 billion package, including these cash payments, is deemed to be a success, the only measure you can use is employment. If this works, unemployment won’t increase. Yet we’ve heard Wayne Swan say that they are predicating the next budget on rising unemployment. That they are going to revise the forecast for unemployment up from 7%. So surely on what is the only measure of success…
GILLON:
But Mitch Fifield the global conditions that we have…
FIFIELD:
…this has failed.
GILLON:
But looking at the global factors here, surely unemployment is going to rise regardless of what sort of measures the government has in place. Surely this can perhaps lessen the impact or not, but unemployment is going to rise.
FIFIELD:
Well that is the position that the government wants to be in. They want to be able to say, when it comes to unemployment, it’s all the fault of the global financial crisis. When it comes to a rising budget deficit, it’s all the fault of the global financial crisis. When it comes to government debt, it’s all the fault of the global financial crisis. When it comes to slowing growth, it is all the fault of the global financial crisis. But the government does have a responsibility here. And what they’ve done through their actions is to exacerbate the effects of the global challenge. You’ll recall in 2008 the government spent a lot of time talking the economy down. It’s something that Wayne Swan and Kevin Rudd continue to do with quite extreme language. It is in their interests to say that this is all beyond our control, this is all due to the global financial situation. But there are things the government can do to make the situation better, there are things the government can do to make the situation worse. They are making the situation worse. This $42 billion stimulus package isn’t the answer, it’s not going to help improve the productive capacity of the nation. This government isn’t doing anything to assist small business to retain staff and to employ new staff. Malcolm Turnbull has announced a plan that would do just that. We are seeing a government that is just throwing money around so that they are seen to be doing something, but they don’t actually have any practical concrete plans to assist small business to retain staff.
ARBIB:
Oh come off it Mitch the stimulus package…
GILLON:
Mark Arbib…
ARBIB:
The stimulus package is actually aimed at putting money into the economy, into the pockets of small business, so they can keep their doors open…
GILLON:
Mark Arbib how much responsibility will the Government take if unemployment does rise beyond the 7% it has forecast for the middle of next year?
ARBIB:
I think the Prime Minister has already said we take responsibility for the unemployment rate, but in the end there is only so much that any government can do in the face of a global recession. And I mean this thing is a global cyclone. What we have said from day one is…
FIFIELD:
There you go again.
ARBIB:
…is our effects. That’s right Mitch, because it is.
FIFIELD:
There you go again.
ARBIB:
There’s only so much that any government can do…
FIFIELD:
We can’t do anything.
ARBIB:
What this is about is cushioning the economy, cushioning the country and cushioning workers from the worst of the global recession. That is what we’ve said we are doing. And Mitch lets go back to stimulus round one, last November. I mean you sat next to me and said we support it, it will work, we support the stimulus package, we support the doubling and tripling of the first home buyers grant which is working, if we look at first home buyers getting back into the market and its been amazing, I think it was 42,000 first home buyers come back into the marketplace, great result. And that is working to stimulate the economy because when they do that, that means builders keep their jobs, suppliers keep their jobs…
GILLON:
There has been speculation of course, that there will be further stimulus measures in the upcoming budget. Mitch Fifield are you prepared to block parts of the budget if you disagree with some of those elements?
FIFIELD:
Well the first point is we can’t block anything. We don’t have the numbers in the Senate. The only way that legislation can be defeated…
GILLON:
But the opposition can vote against these measures.
FIFIELD:
Certainly, certainly, but we can’t block anything. It’s only if the independents or the Greens join with us that legislation can be defeated. But certainly if we think that there is bad policy, bad legislation, if we think the government is going to be wasting money, if we think that the government is going to be spending money for no good effect then of course we would oppose those sorts of measures. It is our job as an opposition to scrutinise all legislation including Budget legislation and if we don’t think it is in the national interest then of course we would oppose it.
GILLON:
Do you think it might be more helpful though if the opposition waits to see what is in the Budget before making these threats about voting against it?
FIFIELD:
Well we’re not making any threats and we certainly will wait to see what is in the Budget before we declare our position on particular issues. We’re just making a point of principle which is that we have a job as an opposition to scrutinise legislation and where there is bad policy, where the government intends to waste money for no good effect then of course we will oppose that legislation.
ARBIB:
But Joe Hockey went further than that yesterday, he is already talking about amazingly and I fell of my chair when I heard this. He is already talking about blocking the budget, blocking stimulus…
FIFIELD:
Not at all. No, Joe didn’t say that.
ARBIB:
Well I mean Mitch it was amazing…
GILLON:
…I’ve got the quote here Mark Arbib, Mr Hockey said yesterday “if there is waste and mismanagement, we will oppose it”, which is exactly what Senator Fifield has just said then.
FIFIELD:
Exactly.
ARBIB:
But in terms of, have a look at what they have opposed already, I mean already they’ve opposed the stimulus package, they’ve opposed the school modernisation package, they’ve opposed money for roads, they’ve opposed money for houses, they’ve opposed money for rail upgrades. I mean this is an opposition that is just totally playing political games. They are putting their own self interest ahead of the national interest time and time again and just opposing anything in parliament, if they don’t believe it is worthy of themselves, I mean look at alcopops…
GILLON:
Senator Fifield I’m really interested to find out what you think the government needs to do in the Budget to save jobs. Specifically what do you want the Budget to deliver?
FIFIELD:
Sure, well I think the Budget should deliver the plan that Malcolm Turnbull has outlined, a carry-back of losses to assist small businesses who are doing it tough in this financial year and the next financial year. That is something which would allow small business more money, it would allow them to keep on more staff. Also providing some assistance to small business for the super-guarantee contributions, again part of Malcolm Turnbull’s plan. They are practical measures which would put more money in the pockets of small businesses and put small business in a position where they are much better able to keep on staff. That’s where the focus should be, how to assist the engine of the Australian economy, how to assist the engine room which employs more people than any other sector, and that is small business.
GILLON:
Senator Arbib what is your take on some of those ideas that Mitch Fifield laid out and also do you think that there needs to be more stimulus spending in this budget?
ARBIB:
I am actually glad to see that Mitch and the Coalition are actually putting forward a positive solution because it’s been a while, and it would have been helpful if they actually, when we put into parliament the legislation to help small business in terms of tax benefits for investment, they actually had supported it, but they opposed it. Which actually surprised me so good on him for doing that. In terms of the next Budget, obviously we have some tough, tough choices to make, there is no doubt about it. We obviously need to keep stimulating the economy and that may require further spending but I’m unaware, I’m not in the cabinet so I don’t know that. But certainly, obviously we’ve also got the Infrastructure Australia announcements coming up over the next couple of months and that will be some major spending in terms of infrastructure and that’s where we are going to see some of the big, big projects get the go-ahead and get underway. At the moment the Nation Building and Jobs package is looking at mid-level infrastructure, infrastructure that can be started quickly, as I said the school projects etc. But then we are going to move soon into the larger projects, the major road projects, etc.
GILLON:
Senator Fifield the Treasurer Wayne Swan said this morning that he thinks the opposition would rather see the country fail rather than see the Rudd Government succeed. How much politics is at play here?
FIFIELD:
That’s absolutely absurd. You’ve only got to look at the Coalition’s record; we took difficult decisions in government in the national interest. We repaid $96 billion of Labor debt. We had to make significant savings which weren’t always popular. So it is absolutely absurd to say that we would want to see the nation fail, the Coalition has a strong record of pursuing Australia’s national interest.
GILLON:
Ok Senator Fifield and Senator Arbib, stay with us, we are going to a quick break. Coming up next we’ll look at the government’s plan to help home owners pay their mortgages. Let’s come back in a couple of minutes with that.
BREAK
GILLON:
Welcome back to AM Agenda. We are going through the day’s political stories, with me this morning is the Labor Senator Mark Arbib and the Liberal Senator Mitch Fifield. Well yesterday we saw the Prime Minister announce a plan, a mortgage reprieve plan to help home buyers try to perhaps delay their mortgage repayments if they do lose their jobs. Here is the Shadow Treasurer Joe Hockey commenting on that plan yesterday.
SHADOW TREASURER JOE HOCKEY:
It was a commercial initiative announced initially by the Commonwealth Bank, it’s great that the other major Banks are on board, but there are literally hundreds of thousands of Australians that do not have mortgages with the major financial institutions and therefore they might well not be covered. I hope they are, I hope it has been thought through by Kevin Rudd.
GILLON:
Mark Arbib it now seems clear that not everybody who loses their jobs will be able to benefit from this sort of scheme, it seems that customers of regional banks and smaller banks won’t be able to have access to this at all.
ARBIB:
Well we are working with those smaller organisations and the credit unions etc. The Treasurer said today that they are going to continue to have discussions and hopefully we will see some progress to that level as well. Some of those smaller credit unions and building societies already provide the sort of flexibility that the major banks have decided that they will provide to those people who have become unemployed. So let’s wait and see, that might get fixed over the coming weeks. But it is important announcement yesterday from the Prime Minister and it was extremely positive to see this new flexibility for people who lose their jobs, borrowers who lose their jobs through no fault of their own. And really that will remove some of the stress that people have when they do lose their jobs. You can imagine the stress: you lose your job, those bills keep coming in for repayments to your house and your car. So if banks can be flexible then I think that is an outstanding outcome. And I wish that Joe Hockey could actually be positive for once, I mean watching him there again, he only sees the negative side of it, Joe. He can’t sort of say well congratulations that is a good result, he goes straight to the negative.
GILLON:
Well Mark Arbib one of the negative concerns raised yesterday by the opposition is that these options could end up seeing people end up with a greater debt and higher repayments at the end of the day. Is that a concern that you are worried about?
ARBIB:
The concern that we are worried about at the moment is that people lose their jobs, then lose their house. Really let’s look at what effect that has on their life, in terms of being thrown out onto the streets and having to find accommodation. But also it leads to forced sale, forced sale of those premises which can lead to a reduction in housing prices across the whole marketplace. So it is important that we provide support and flexibility for people who have lose their jobs, to ensure that they stay in their own homes and I think if you go out and talk to the many thousands of people who’ve lost their jobs they would be saying this is a very, very good announcement and they are very happy with it.
GILLON:
Senator Fifield what’s your take on this scheme? Obviously not all of the Banks are on board but isn’t it better to start helping some people rather than none at all?
FIFIELD:
Look it is certainly good news. Anything that can help home owners with a mortgage, who’ve lost their job to hold onto their homes, is certainly a good thing. What causes me concern though is whenever you see a Prime Minister or a government make an announcement on behalf of commercial organisations, in this case banks, because it leads to a bit of confusion as to whether this is a government scheme, or whether this is a scheme that the banks themselves have come up with. And it looks as though, and I hope it is indeed the case, that this is something that the banks have come up with themselves for commercial reasons rather than something which the government has intervened to seek to extract from the banks. One of the reasons why…
GILLON:
Mark Arbib can you shed any light on that question there? Is it the banks idea or the governments or does it matter as long as we come up with the end outcome?
ARBIB:
Well I think that is the key and that is that we get the end outcome. Mitch couldn’t help himself there. He started off so well saying it’s good news, and rather than just saying it is good news and let’s work together on it, had to move into the negative so Mitch that is just back to form. But can I just say overall Ashleigh there has been consultation and negotiations between the Government and the private sector, and in times like these where you do have a global recession, the public sector and the private sector have got to pull together, there is no doubt about it. So in the end it’s not who is taking credit for it or who is getting credit it for it, the truth is in the end it’s about those people that lose their jobs don’t also lose their houses and don’t also lose their cars hopefully as well. That’s what it is about, ending that sort of stress so let’s just work positively on it, look at the positive side, let’s not worry about who is responsible for it.
FIFIELD:
Well Ashleigh as soon as…
GILLON:
Senator Fifield, I’ll let you continue, sorry to interrupt you before.
FIFIELD:
Thank you, that’s ok. My concern is when you have government announcing something on behalf of the private sector, you can get mixed messages. You can have a misrepresentation of the situation. I think a lot of people would have in their minds as a result of the Prime Minister’s announcement that there is an as of right entitlement to this sort of protection from the banks, that it’s an automatic entitlement that mortgage holders have to be able to not make their repayments, to roll them over. And I think that is a concern, if the public do have that view, because there is no automatic right to this particular entitlement. It is something that will be assessed on a case by case basis, and I think it is very important for mortgage holders to be aware of that.
ARBIB:
No, and Mitch, and that is, what Mitch is saying is exactly true. This isn’t a right, but this is an agreement from the banks to work with their customers and to provide flexibility. And as you said the Commonwealth has already raised it, and there are many building societies and small banks that actually do this now, but, overall, there will be a lot of people who benefit out of it in a real time of need. So it is a positive step in the right direction.
FIFIELD:
I think it is always best…
GILLON:
We are running out of time.
FIFIELD:
It’s always best to let banks speak for themselves, and banks to speak for their products, and speak for their circumstances. If the banks do that then we avoid this sort of confusion.
GILLON:
Ok just one final issue to get to. Over the weekend the newspapers were filled with more details about Kevin Rudd’s mid air meltdown where he reportedly made a female attendant cry because he had some rude remarks to make when he wasn’t delivered a special meal. Mark Arbib that sort of behaviour has been described as bullying by the opposition, but also there are reports this weekend that the Prime Minister’s office lied about this story when asked to comment on it, they denied it had ever happened, that’s certainly not a good look for a government that promised to bring openness and accountability to government.
ARBIB:
And we have, look at the FOI legislation that we are putting forward in terms of to provide more transparency…
GILLON:
But is that acceptable, for…
FIFIELD:
Come off it Mark.
ARBIB:
Ashleigh I’m happy to answer that if Mitch wants to get out of the way, I’m happy to answer the question. In terms of the Prime Minister, he’s human, I mean he had a moment and he has apologised to the actual woman involved and I think that was the right thing to do. Really, all of us have a responsibility to act properly, and if he didn’t, then he was wrong and he’s apologised. And there are bigger issues at play at the moment that we should be talking about, we’ve got a global recession, we’ve got people going out of work, really we’ve got to focus on that. This has been dealt with by the Prime Minister, it has been dealt with appropriately, let’s move on.
GILLON:
Well the opposition of course was claiming that we are getting a real glimpse of the real Kevin Rudd and that we are seeing a new dark side emerging, but Mitch Fifield, is this as Mark Arbib says, Mr Rudd apologised for the matter, is that now the end of it?
FIFIELD:
Oh look it was a pretty half-hearted apology the Prime Minister gave at the G20, he said oh look, you know, if I happened to have offended anyone then I am sorry. It was pretty half-hearted. Clearly the PM, on this occasion, was a bit of a pill, you know, let’s be honest. He certainly was.
ARBIB:
A bit of a what?
FIFIELD:
A bit of a pill, it’s a common Australian phrase.
ARBIB:
I didn’t pick that up.
FIFIELD:
The Prime Minister was a bit of a pill, on this occasion. But we again see in this episode this government’s default, this Prime Minister’s default, whenever a difficult issue is raised, the first response from his office, the first response from him is to fib about it. The Prime Minister’s press secretary, fibbed initially, he said no such event happened. We’ve seen this sort of approach before, you’ll remember during the campaign, or before the campaign, the Prime Minister was asked if he had had dinner with Brian Burke, his initial response was no he hadn’t. The default of this government is to fib. And Mark can talk about FOI and improving openness and transparency in government but it ultimately comes back to the culture that ministers themselves establish in this government. And the trend set from the top by the Prime Minister is that there is a culture of fibbing, there is a culture of secrecy. Don’t talk about FOI legislation Mark, the thing to do is for ministers themselves to practice what they preach, to be open and don’t lie to the Australian people and don’t lie to the press gallery.
ARBIB:
But you can’t say that about the Prime Minister, I mean the Prime Minister has been honest about this from day one and has dealt with it properly, has apologised, and then got up to the nation and apologised, I mean how much do further do you want him to go Mitch I mean its getting to a ridiculous level.
GILLON:
Ok. Mitch Fifield and Mark Arbib we have run out of time. This is one story that seems to just be sticking around, thank you for your time this morning.
ENDS