Senator Mitch Fifield
Shadow Parliamentary Secretary
for Disabilities, Carers and the Voluntary Sector
Sky News AM Agenda
Kieran Gilbert and Senator Mark Arbib
1 June 2009
8:30am
EO & E
Subjects: Coalition advertisement, Galaxy poll, debt, deficit, ETS
KIERAN GILBERT:
Good morning and welcome to AM Agenda. This week some crucial economic data with the national accounts out this Wednesday expected to confirm what most economists have been saying for months that Australia is in recession. The Liberals, and their leader Malcolm Turnbull have launched a pre-emptive strike with a television advertisement which aired for the first time last night.
CLIP OF MALCOLM TURNBULL TV AD (watch it here: www.liberal.org.au)
GILBERT:
Good morning and welcome to our Monday panel, Labor Parliamentary Secretary for Government service delivery Mark Arbib and Liberal Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Disabilities Mitch Fifield. Good to see you both.
MITCH FIFIELD:
Good morning.
MARK ARBIB:
Good morning.
GILBERT:
Senator Arbib it looks like the Liberals have certainly identified your weak point, that being your debt and your ability to repay it?
ARBIB:
Well I don’t think that ad is a surprise, it is a scare campaign that we have been talking about, rolled out now onto TV. So we can expect to see a lot of it over the coming months. But again it just shows how out of touch Malcolm Turnbull is. He does a 30 second ad on the economy and doesn’t mention the global recession once, did not mention the global recession, and this is the way the Liberal Party are acting at the moment. For them the global recession isn’t happening. Let’s not put things in context, let’s not talk about comparisons overseas, let’s just talk about debts and deficits. The reason we’ve got a debt, the reason we’ve got a deficit is the global recession, the end of the mining boom, $210 billion wiped off our revenue.
GILBERT:
Are you concerned though, as you’ve been a political strategist for many years, are you concerned that these ads will resonate, that the debt will scare people?
ARBIB:
Well I have to say I’m not concerned about those ads, because again there is no balance in those ads, I mean he doesn’t even mention the global recession. You know there was an election in Queensland where Lawrence Springborg wouldn’t admit that there was a global recession. I think Malcolm Turnbull has outdone him with that. I mean until the Coalition can actually come to the table and honestly reflect and talk about the global recession and the effect it is having on our revenue stream, the effect it is having on unemployment, the effect it is having on small business, then really they are just completely out of touch and out of the debate.
GILBERT:
Mitch Fifield what do you make of those comments?
FIFIELD:
Well I think they are absurd. The reason why we have got this TV ad is because you won’t get the truth from the government. The Prime Minister, the Treasurer couldn’t bring themselves to utter the figure of Commonwealth debt. The Treasurer neglected to mention in the budget speech that the deficit was $58 billion so I think it is important that we’ve got someone out there who’s actually giving the facts. And that’s all Malcolm was doing, was giving the facts that we’re on track for $188 billion of debt by 2012-13, two-thirds of which is as a result of spending decisions not the revenue write-downs which Mark is so fond of talking about but two-thirds of which is as a result of spending decisions taken by this government. And we are heading towards government borrowings of $315 billion. Now the government don’t like talking about those facts, they are ugly facts. Mark talks of a scare campaign. It’s not a scare campaign. These are real numbers. They are real facts and those facts are scary.
GILBERT:
There’s no mystery to the timing of it with the National Accounts out Wednesday as we mentioned, expected to show Australia is now, to confirm we are in, officially in a recession.
FIFIELD:
Well I don’t think you should look at it in terms of coincidence or not, we’re just in the business of putting the facts out there. Now we will see in the National Accounts if we are technically in a recession, but the reality is the economy has slowed, the stimulus package, the $42 billion stimulus package hasn’t worked. We were told that that would keep us from recession. We were told that it would create 90,000 jobs. That clearly hasn’t happened. The stimulus package clearly has failed.
GILBERT:
Obviously the government and Mark you can elaborate on this but no doubt the government will be using parliament this week to again to argue where the stimulus has worked, can we expect the use of more of those props? I mean it did seem to get absurd last week the way the Prime Minister every day would hold up a photograph, it was like a slide show.
ARBIB:
Well we had to break through last week. The Coalition has been running their scare campaign they’ve been saying there is no infrastructure. I mean that is Malcolm Turnbull has been running around saying there is no infrastructure being built. So I think the Prime Minister was right to show the photos of the infrastructure.
GILBERT:
Can we expect more photos today?
ARBIB:
I have no idea. But can I say it is important that people realise, and Mitch talks about facts, here are the facts, Mitch, I want you to understand the facts. 70% of the stimulus package is in infrastructure. That is fixing our roads, fixing our rail lines, fixing our schools.
FIFIELD:
But you’re counting bike paths and pink batts.
ARBIB:
No, no, no, you are talking about community infrastructure which is the local councils and makes up a very small component. And pink batts, let me tell you, pink batts. I went down to Dandenong, factory, Fletchers Factory, they’ve just invested $9 million in plant and machinery, $9 million, this is in terms of rolling out of the stimulus package an extra 55 jobs. This is investment in the Australian economy in jobs.
FIFIELD:
It doesn’t add to the long term productive capacity of the nation.
ARBIB:
How can you say that? It will. In terms of climate change, fighting climate change, carbon and the Coalition is so far out of touch on this look at the, it’s going to save the average family $200 a year. But that is only a small part of it, a small part of it.
FIFIELD:
You could have got better bang for your buck for less money.
ARBIB:
We are spending more money on rail in five years than you spent in 12 years.
FIFIELD:
That’s simply not true.
ARBIB:
We are spending on roads, bring forward, doubling of the road budget…
GILBERT:
Why do you need to, just getting back quickly to the strategy last week, I mean do we really have to, do the Australian people really need photographs to and these props to tell them what’s happening, isn’t it sort of assuming they are not able to…
ARBIB:
Well the Liberals have been playing a bit of a game, what they do is, they come to Canberra and they say the stimulus package is just terrible, really this is just cash splashes, it’s a shocker, then they get to their local electorates and they just, thumbs up, great infrastructure, we’re really happy with the packages, so the Prime Minister called them on their strategy…
FIFIELD:
They are two separate issues Mark…
ARBIB:
He shined a light on their strategy, in the parliament and I think that is the right thing to do.
GILBERT:
Is it disingenuous for Liberals to be bagging it and to block it and then to show up with the thumbs up at the opening of these local infrastructure projects?
FIFIELD:
Our issue with the $42 billion package was the quantum and the quality of the spend. We didn’t think there was enough money on serious economic infrastructure. Infrastructure which would add to the long term productive capacity of the nation. We thought that you could have had a smaller spend but for a better result. Now in voting against that package and voting against the quantum that’s not to say that individual local members have issues or are against particular local projects. They are two separate things and I think to run them together is unfair. But I do have to say I think Mark, you can do better than this, your explanation on Lateline on Friday night that the Opposition forced the Government to take those photographs into the parliament to prove that these projects were happening. I mean that is an interesting explanation, Mark…
ARBIB:
Well you are, you are. You are out there talking about facts…
FIFIELD:
For the appalling behaviour of the Prime Minister in question time. He promised that he would be better, that he would set higher standards. He’s taken standards low.
ARBIB:
Well Mitch if you guys, if you told the truth, and stopped being dishonest about the infrastructure and actually admitted we are into the construction phase, 35,000 projects, small to medium, this is the second part of the stimulus then we are going for big infrastructure…
GILBERT:
But doesn’t Mitch have a point, doesn’t the Prime Minister set the tone in many respects, John Howard never used props, the Prime Minister is using props like a slide show every day. Doesn’t that set the tone for the broader question time?
ARBIB:
But these are photos of live sites of construction sites underway…
FIFIELD:
But Kevin Rudd was forced to do it, he was forced to do it by the Opposition.
ARBIB:
Photos of workers underway now. Photos of the schools that Malcolm Turnbull goes into parliament and opposes and then goes out there and tries to take the credit for them.
FIFIELD:
We forced you to do it. It’s our fault.
GILBERT:
Ok let’s move on. I want to look at the Galaxy poll, some positive news for Kevin Rudd as a strong leader, he is seen a stronger leader by 55% of people, 51% think he is the better person in the economic climate so that’s the good news. The bad news is 36% think he is ok but there are some things they are unsure about. 36%, that’s quite a number, Mark Arbib it seems a lot of people still have doubts about the PM, is he still a work in progress in many people’s minds?
ARBIB:
It’s not going to surprise you Kieran but I’m not going to analyse the polls. Especially during a global recession, I think the worst thing and I’ve said this before so this is not a new thing for me, every time I’m here, the worst thing you can do during a recession, during a crisis that we’ve got globally is to be interpreting polls. What I will say though is I think voters…
FIFIELD:
They’re out of bounds. They’re out of bounds.
ARBIB:
No, no, no, and I’m sure you’ll be talking about them because you always do, but I don’t do
FIFIELD:
How can you say you can’t talk about the polls because the economy is doing it tough? That’s mad.
ARBIB:
But at the same time as that I think Australians understand that we are doing, and Kevin Rudd is doing, what’s in the national interest. There is no doubt about it, we are doing everything possible to support and protect jobs and small business during the global recession. That’s what the stimulus package is about we are concerned about the national interest, Malcolm Turnbull and the Liberals, they’re only concerned about their own interests.
GILBERT:
There seems to be, there’s a number here that I want to get your thoughts on, this is the perception that Kevin Rudd is more likely to be someone that can turn nasty if he doesn’t get his own way, 43% of people think that the PM has got that nasty streak. Is this off the back of those reports that hew blew up at an air hostess and has a temper?
ARBIB:
Kevin Rudd has admitted that he’s not perfect, and no one is. I mean we look at our politicians and we try to think that they are but we are all just people, we make mistakes, he’s said that, he’s not Mother Theresa, there’s no doubt about that. But at the same time this is a guy that is working 24/7 in the national interest and we’re not just working on the global recession trying to fend of the global recession, we have a huge agenda coming out of the last election. Climate change, look at what we are doing in terms of an emissions trading scheme, we are driving that hard. The education revolution, computers in schools, look at what we are doing on broadband, we’ve got a lot on the table and that means it is a lot of hard work.
GILBERT:
For Malcolm Turnbull we saw the last week he got a little bit tetchy when his rating in the BRW rich list was released and now in this Galaxy poll we’ll turn to his numbers, 47% say he is more arrogant than Kevin Rudd and out of touch, 48%, nearly one in two voters for both of those. You can see why Malcolm Turnbull is a bit annoyed about being painted as the silverspoon if they are the numbers that he’s seeing in terms of polling.
FIFIELD:
Oh look to know Malcolm is to love him and I’m sure the more Australians get to know Malcolm the more they’ll like what they see. He’s a person of great character, he is a person of great intellect, he’d make a fantastic Prime Minister. He’s never presented himself as Mother Theresa…
GILBERT:
Is he out of touch?
FIFIELD:
No, not at all. And that’s the difference with Kevin Rudd. Kevin Rudd was presented by the Australian Labor Party to the Australian people before the last election as Mother Theresa. Kevin could do no wrong.
ARBIB:
I don’t remember that ad Mitch.
FIFIELD:
I remember the ads. But anyway I think the mask is starting to fall, the Australian people are starting to see the real Kevin Rudd. I think 10 per cent of people in that Galaxy survey said that they were getting a little bit tired of Kevin Rudd, I know how they feel. Two-thirds said that he hadn’t lived up to expectations, so there are some worrying trends in those numbers for Labor.
GILBERT:
Ok thanks, we’ll pause there for the moment, stay with us after the break we are going to look at the debate about the emissions trading scheme which is up for a vote in the House of Representatives this week.
BREAK
GILBERT:
Welcome back to AM Agenda. The government will secure passage of its emissions trading scheme legislation through the House of Representatives this week but later in the month in the Senate it’s all but certain to be blocked. Earlier in the morning I spoke to one of the key players, the Nationals Senate leader Barnaby Joyce. I began by asking him about today’s galaxy poll which shows that nearly 50% thing Malcolm Turnbull is arrogant and out of touch.
NATIONALS SENATE LEADER BARNABY JOYCE:
No I think at the end of the day people look for whether you are going to be a good leader, whether you have the capacity or the strength to take the people with you through a hard period of time which the current financial crisis will lead us to. I truly believe the hardest time is in front of us in a big way. I think the world financial climate will really freeze up as the amount of debt that’s there globally especially the amount of debt that is there domestically in our nation, people didn’t vote for John Howard because they thought he was a soft touch they voted for John Howard because they thought he was a good leader and I’m thinking that’s what will happen at the next election.
GILBERT:
Well you are still well behind though ten points will this cause any headaches do you think in the Tunrbull camp or in the Coalition more broadly?
JOYCE:
No I think that people are saying what is the main issue that we are going to fight it on, it’s going to be debt, quite obviously. Can we use the argument that this is imposed by Mr Rudd? Well obviously it is, you look at his actions. What’s the best argument that Labor has at this point in time? They say well what would you do? That’s just as ridiculous as saying if I was a silly as you what would I do next. Well if I was conscious of my silliness as the Labor Party is I would probably drown myself. They’ve got no argument, they’ve got themselves into this packet of poo tickets and someone’s going to have to get us out and Australia will be looking for the person of leadership to do it.
GILBERT:
Malcolm Turnbull says that if there is an international agreement Australians will expect the government of the day to get on board and the opposition of the day to back an ETS. Is there any chance you will?
JOYCE:
An ETS is an employment termination scheme for regional Australia and ultimately for all of Australian. An ETS, an employment termination scheme, that looks at the most productive section of our economy, that is the mining industry, the one that actually puts money in your pocket whether you realise it or not, and the agricultural industry which actually feeds you whether you realise it or not, and turns it on it’s head. It’s a ridiculous piece of policy.
GILBERT:
So you’re willing then to split with the Liberals on this because Malcolm Turnbull as recently as yesterday said that Australians will expect their politicians to move if there is an international agreement.
JOYCE:
Well you’ll, of course there is a reflection that there is a National Party, there is a Liberal Party, there is a Labor Party, there’s a Greens, you know, there is a full political sweep there and you know I don’t vote for Malcolm as leader and Malcolm doesn’t vote for Warren Truss as leader. So there is a reflection of a different political dynamics there and if that is the case so be it. I don’t think the world is going to collapse because of that. I hope dearly that the Liberal Party does not support an emission trading scheme because of what it will do to our economy and our, we are supposed to be the side of the political spectrum that understands the economy, and putting out of business our coal industry and the working families of seats such as Dawson, and Capricornia and the Hunter Valley and the Illawarra to replace them with what, paper traders in sky-scrapers in Sydney? I don’t think its something that is palatable and the pain that will be inflicted on working families as they are turfed out of their house cause they’re old man lost their job. I don’t think that is fair for a political gesture, Kieran. Remember this policy does nothing about the global climate, it is a political gesture.
GILBERT:
Barnaby Joyce thanks for your time.
JOYCE:
You’re welcome Kieran.
GILBERT:
Welcome back to our panel, Labor Senator Mark Arbib and Liberal Senator Mitch Fifield. Mitch it sounds like Malcolm Turnbull’s got a very, very difficult almost impossible ask to on the one hand back a form of ETS when you hear Barnaby Joyce speaking about it, he’s not going to back anything.
FIFIELD:
Well you know Barnaby made the point that the emissions trading scheme as it’s currently designed is in his words, “an employment termination scheme” and I think there is a lot of truth to that. The current ETS would destroy jobs…
GILBERT:
He doesn’t use the caveat as it is currently designed. He says full stop, ETS.
FIFIELD:
We know the current ETS will destroy jobs, that’s why the government has delayed its introduction. Now Barnaby does have a bit of a different take, I readily concede that, but the National Party is a separate political party. We work together in Coalition. They bring a range of views to the table and we discuss that.
GILBERT:
Are you happy to split on this, are you happy to vote, do you think, you’ve watched politics for many years do you think if you split that would be disastrous leading into an election?
FIFIELD:
I don’t know what position the National Party, what position Barnaby will ultimately take. It remains to be seen what the government does in response to our proposal.
GILBERT:
Well they’re trying to wedge you on this, that’s exactly what you’re trying to do. Is wedge them and split them on this.
FIFIELD:
Of course they are. But it remains to be seen if the Government will take up our very sensible proposal that the ETS legislation be referred to the Productivity Commission so we can get a handle on what the impact will be on jobs and the regions. I remain optimistic that the Government might reconsider and actually delay a vote on the ETS.
GILBERT:
Glass half full Mitch?
FIFIELD:
You’ve got to think positively….
TRANSMISSION INTERRUPTED
…emissions trading scheme, so we think the government should delay, they should wait until after Copenhagen, until after it is clear what the US will do.
GILBERT:
But Mark Arbib what are your thoughts on what Mitch has had to say, but also then it does seem quite clear that you are trying to milk it for all its worth in terms of splitting them on this.
ARBIB:
We’re trying to get an emissions trading scheme up in the Senate, that’s what we are trying to do. I don’t think it is any surprise what Barnaby Joyce has said, he came out five minutes after Malcolm Turnbull made his announcement and pretty much torpedoed straight into Malcolm Turnbull’s boat on this one. They’re just trying to delay, they know that their caucus, Liberal Party MPs, National MPs, they don’t support, they don’t support…
FIFIELD:
You’ve delayed it yourself.
ARBIB:
They don’t support taking action on climate change. We know that for a fact, this is a political fix. It’s a con-job on the Australian public because if you left it to Malcolm Turnbull there would never be an emissions trading scheme and it just goes back to who he is as a person, in Government…
FIFIELD:
It was Howard Government policy.
ARBIB:
Exactly, and hew was the Environment Minister who was out there championing an emissions trading scheme saying it is 100% necessary…
FIFIELD:
So why do you think we are against an emissions trading scheme? It was our policy.
ARBIB:
Mitch if you let me finish I will tell you why. This is what he was saying in government, now in opposition he knows he can’t hold together his caucus. I mean there is no doubt, I have no doubt that Cory Bernardi, Senator Cory Bernardi from the Liberal Party, he will never vote for an emissions trading scheme, Dennis Jensen from WA, Liberal Party MP, he’s out running a petitions against global warming. He will never vote for an emissions trading scheme. So Turnbull, he is a smart, smart politician, he’s pushing it out, pushing it out and even if there is a decision at Copenhagen and even if the United States makes the call, he will have another excuse.
GILBERT:
So are you happy to then, do you think you’d be happy to go to an election, say that the other mob are split and call one by the end of the year, early next year.
ARBIB:
We do not want an election. What we want is…
GILBERT:
You are heading towards one, are you going to have a double dissolution? You say you want to pass it, Penny Wong said it yesterday, we are determined to pass it, the only way you are going to pass it, in the words of Kim Beazley last week, the former Labor Leader, is to have a double dissolution.
ARBIB:
Well what Penny Wong said yesterday was that we’ll negotiate with everybody in the Senate and that means negotiating with the Greens and negotiating with the cross benches.
FIFIELD:
Greg Combet said they were economic lunatics a couple of weeks back.
ARBIB:
This is an opportunity here, we’ve got on the one side, business, the AIG, the Australian Industry Group, we’ve got the BCA, we’ve got Bluescope Steel supporting what we are doing, on the other hand we’ve got environmental groups, WWF, ACF, supporting us. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to do the right thing.
GILBERT:
But they don’t get a vote in the Senate.
ARBIB:
That’s true Kieran but at the same time as that we have found a balance. We’ve got both business and we’ve got the Green groups supporting us and this is actually a chance to take action on climate change and take the action on climate change that’s needed. The real pressure comes back on the Liberal Party and Malcolm Turnbull, he says he is for an emissions trading scheme, well if he is, lets see, put the money on the table and start negotiating.
FIFIELD:
Now Mark’s verballing industry. Heather Ridout, at the weekend, said that it’s important to get the balance right between providing certainty for business and certain death for business. She’s very concerned…
ARBIB:
But they support the package.
FIFIELD:
…very concerned that the government doesn’t have the balance right. The government argues that passing this legislation will give certainty to business. It won’t. The essence of this scheme is in the regulations, which haven’t been drafted. It’s important to get it right. And I must say the thinly-veiled threats by Greg Combet last week if business does not get in lockstep with the government are very concerning.
ENDS