ABC Q&A
Sydney
16 April 2018
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Good evening, everyone. Good evening and welcome to Q&A. I’m Virginia Trioli, and I’m back! Here to answer your questions tonight – the international executive director of Human Rights Watch, Ken Roth, the Minister for Communications and the Arts, Mitch Fifield, the singer-songwriter with something to say, Missy Higgins, long-time Liberal Party strategist and former Chief of Staff to John Howard, Grahame Morris, and Labor Party frontbencher Amanda Rishworth. Please welcome our panel tonight.
Now, I know that last week I promised that Tony Jones would be here, but over the weekend the laryngitis has kicked in, so he’s watching quietly at home. Tony, dear one, please, get well soon! We all want it.
Tonight’s Q&A is live in Eastern Australia on ABC TV and live on iView and NewsRadio at 9:35 Eastern Standard Time. And you can stream us on YouTube, Facebook and Periscope. Our first question tonight comes from Amelia Gilbert.
FACEBOOK PRIVACY 00:01:17
AMELIA GILBERT
Mitch Fifield. Hi. Recent world events involving Facebook have exposed the serious implications that technology and the internet can have for individual privacy and democracy. It’s clear that our current legal framework is insufficient in this area. With an election coming up next year, what steps is your government taking to address these shortcomings in privacy protection?
MITCH FIFIELD, MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS
Thanks. It’s a terrific question. I think, if you look back over the last 10 years or so, there’s been a bit of an attitude in general that somehow the ordinary laws of our society, the ordinary rules of human interaction, don’t apply online. Increasingly, the view of governments and the community is that the online space should be governed just like the real world, if you like.
We’re all very concerned about what’s happened with Facebook. The Privacy Commissioner has announced that she’s undertaking a formal inquiry to determine if Australian privacy law has been breached. And if it has, there are significant penalties. I’ve also, separate to that, commissioned the ACCC, the consumer watchdog, to undertake an inquiry into the market power of social media organisations to see how they use their data, what it is that they do when it comes to the presentation of news, what the influence is that they have over advertising. So, I think we’ll find some really important findings from those two inquiries.
But my view is, absolutely, if the laws aren’t adequate, if the penalties aren’t severe enough, then we should absolutely take further action.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Ken Roth, let’s hear from you.
KENNETH ROTH, INTERNATIONAL DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH
Look, we know the laws aren’t adequate. We know that, you know, companies like Facebook take our data. You know, there’s a little box you may check at the beginning filled with legal gobbledegook. You have no idea what it means, you don’t really have a choice. We need to change the laws to give you control over your data. And so you should be able to decide, do you want to share the data or not? Do you want to take the data back? Do you want to take things off of Facebook? Which is very hard to do. This, you know, all is permitted within existing law. So we need laws that really protect our privacy.
The other thing that’s worth mentioning here is that the Australian government has taken the lead in trying to weaken privacy protections. Because, you know, one of the best ways to protect your privacy when you’re speaking on the phone is what’s known as end-to-end encryption, so that nobody can snoop on your phone conversation, nobody can snoop on your email. The Australian government wants to, what they call, build a back door…
MITCH FIFIELD
Not true.
KENNETH ROTH
…into end-to-end encryption. And the result would be… Basically, it’s weakening an encryption. …it’s not just the government that will snoop – it’s hackers, it’s bad guys, it’s the Chinese and Russian government. And so this is a crazy idea. You can’t, you know, weaken end-to-end encryption, weaken our privacy protections, for just, you know, law enforcement purposes without weakening your privacy protections for everything you do. You don’t want to go there.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
I want to hear from everyone on the panel on this. But just very briefly, I see you saying that’s not true. Very briefly, what’s your argument in response?
MITCH FIFIELD
We’re not looking for a back door into people’s encrypted communications. What we want to do is what I said before, is that the ordinary rules of the land, the ordinary laws of the land, apply in the online space. Now, if police have concern that someone is going to undertake an illegal activity, then they can seek a warrant, they can seek a phone tap, to try to intercept a phone message. It shouldn’t be any different…
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
But… I’m gonna jump in there…
MITCH FIFIELD
…if you’re talking about a different sort of technology…
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Sure, but I think Ken Roth is talking of a specific change that you’re referencing.
KENNETH ROTH
Of course, the police can always seek a warrant. And if you go to a company that allows end-to-end encryption, their answer will be, “We can’t get in there.” End-to-end encryption means we don’t have access to that communication. What the government wants to do is to change that. They want to make it so when you seek a warrant, the company says, “Oh, yeah, we can just use our little special on-the-side technique to get in there.” That’s a back door. They don’t like to use the term ‘back door’. They want to weaken our privacy protections. And it’s not just going to be just for law enforcement. It’s going to be for every bad guy who wants your data.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Well, look, Amanda Rishworth might have something to say on this a little later on, but let’s go around the panel in response to your first question there, Amelia. Missy Higgins?
MISSY HIGGINS, SINGER-SONGWRITER
Yeah. I mean, it’s difficult because things like Facebook are so useful in our everyday lives. I mean, in my personal life I use Facebook to ask questions to my friends. Like, recently I asked my friends, “How do I get my three-year-old to stop pissing in his pants…” (LAUGHS) “…and go in the toilet instead?” And I got a lot of really helpful answers.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
The internet has pages devoted to those particular questions. (CHUCKLES)
MISSY HIGGINS
It really does. And then, obviously, you know, I use it with my work to promote my music. So, it has been really helpful. And I don’t mind if a bit of my data is used to sell things back to me. I’m constantly getting ads about, I don’t know, holidays to Bali and pregnancy and marriage and weight loss, and things that they think I would be interested in. But it’s when my data is being used against me as propaganda to potentially sway an election – that’s when I…I think it’s time for the government to step in.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Grahame Morris?
GRAHAME MORRIS, BARTON DEAKIN GOVERNMENT RELATIONS
I declare an interest – one of my clients is Apple. And they’re really, really anxious and toey about anything to do with encryption. All your phones there, each month, each six months, they’re updated, and the security for those gets greater and greater and greater. There is a fear among many of the big communication people that the government will do something, and the Americans and the Brits and whatnot, which will weaken that. And the only way you can break encryption – Apple can’t do it, nobody can do it at the moment – is that you put a little key in there so Apple or somebody can do it and the police can ask for it. But the minute you build in that back-door key, every lunatic in the world is going to be trying to get the Apple key, and your privacy is gone.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
This is Ken’s concern.
GRAHAME MORRIS
Yes, it is. But apart from that, this is a slightly different audience, but I think it really is time that we started talking to some of the young kids and just saying, “Look, this stuff… You’re jumping up and down about privacy, but have a look at the stuff you and your kids are putting out there for everyone else.” And…it scares the hell out of you! You know, people just taking selfies of themselves in their underwear just to see what they look like and then sending it to their mates, that gets sent somewhere else, and then we bitch about privacy!
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Can I just quickly…before we move on to… (LAUGHS) Some people have made their choices about that, clearly. Before we get to you, Amanda Rishworth, as a political operative, would using someone like…an organisation like Cambridge Analytica have bothered you?
That’s for you, Grahame.
GRAHAME MORRIS
Oh! Sorry!
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Yep.
GRAHAME MORRIS
Um…yes. I honestly think what the Minister was saying is right. I think that sort of stuff has gone way, way, way too far.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
It would not have occurred to you at the time?
GRAHAME MORRIS
No. I’m really annoyed it didn’t.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
OK, so you wouldn’t have had qualms about using Cambridge Analytica then?
GRAHAME MORRIS
It is a wonderful, wonderful tool for a political operative. But it goes too far, way too far.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
OK. Amanda Rishworth.
AMANDA RISHWORTH, SHADOW FOR VETERANS’ AFFAIRS
Well, look, thank you for the question. I think we were all really shocked when we heard this week that not only was your information that you put up onto Facebook available, but also if you did a personality quiz by a third-party app, that not only the information you put in there got transmitted to a third party, but everything on Facebook. I think this week was really a threshold issue for Facebook, and I think it became clear to Congress, and indeed Mark Zuckerberg himself, that regulation is needed in this space. Now, what that looks like, how you enforce it, is, I think, a really difficult question. And I’m very keen for the Privacy Commissioner to see that report. But I think it became clear this week that Facebook was dragged kicking and screaming to the table to admit or to catch up with what had gone wrong, and it didn’t meet community standards.
I would say, though, on another element of what can we do, we need to be educating our children from a very young age about what information literacy is and what digital literacy is, not just to question what they’re seeing but to question what they’re not seeing. When I was at high school I learnt about primary sources and secondary sources. You make sure you go to the primary source book, not the secondary source book. We are in a new world now. It’s, “Is this information we’re getting correct? Is it not correct? And how is that manipulating me?” We need a critical citizen to be constantly thinking about it, and we need to start that at school and the early years as well.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Can I just quickly ask you, before we move on, whether you’re as concerned as Ken is about any back-door, so to speak, changes?
AMANDA RISHWORTH
Well, look, we’ve got to have the tools, and our security agents have to have the tools, to do what they need to do. And that was certainly the context in which the government proposed these changes. Obviously, you’ve got to monitor these changes and make sure that they do not impinge on our privacy. But certainly we’ve also got to take stock of government agencies and security agencies about what they need. But there does need to be, obviously, oversight on this type of ability and technology.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Alright, we’ll move on to our next question, and it comes from Pete Johnson.
NBN MONOPOLY 00:11:24
PETE JOHNSON
Hi, Minister. Australia is 51st in the world today for internet speed. Anyone could have predicted that mobile technology would inevitably supersede fixed broadband, and that a government-owned wholesale monopoly would become an uncompetitive and inefficient dinosaur. Utilities only ever raise prices, and when it’s sold, a privatised NBN will be a licence to extract monopoly rent from its captive customers. Surely, the right broadband approach was the original plan of John Howard – unfettered urban competition and a universal service obligation for remote and rural areas. What was ever so difficult about that?
MITCH FIFIELD
Well, to quote Cher, if I could turn back time… But that isn’t open to a politician. You have to deal with what it is that you inherit. And you’re quite right. Having a government-owned monopoly was not our policy. It was the one of my predecessor, Stephen Conroy. But we’ve got to make the best of what we have. You did mention Australia being 51st in the world in terms of internet speeds. I’ve got some good news for you – it’s not actually the case. Because those particular surveys don’t measure the technical capability of a network – they measure the speeds that someone is getting. And what primarily drives the speed that someone is getting is the speed package that they purchase from their retail service provider. Also, that particular survey is measuring, fundamentally, the pre-NBN network, because most people have yet to switch to the NBN. Where we are today is the NBN is now available to more than half the nation. It will be completed by 2020, which is a good six to eight years sooner than would have been the case under our predecessors, and at $30 billion less cost.
Now, it’s not our intention to keep the NBN in government hands. It is to sell it to the private sector. That also was the position of our predecessors. Exactly how we will do that will be determined once we have a Productivity Commission inquiry, once we’ve completed the rollout. But our overwhelming focus at the moment is to complete the rollout by 2020, and we’re on track.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Now, the internet right now is absolutely melting down at any mention of the NBN – the costs, the speeds, how this has gone, how it should have gone. And I can feel us all going down that rabbit hole immediately. So my thoughts are with everyone on Twitter this evening as they’re trying to cope with this.
But, Amanda Rishworth, I can see that you’re straining…
AMANDA RISHWORTH
I am.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
…to respond to this as well, so go ahead.
AMANDA RISHWORTH
Well, firstly, to the questioner, I think it’s not right to say that John Howard’s plan was delivering. In my electorate…I was elected in 2007, and it was the number one issue that was brought up. People could not get connected. The previous Howard government had tried 20 different programs to try and make it work, and that is why Labor built the network. Now, we didn’t want to see a copper network. Copper is old-style technology. It’s not something that’s future-proof. So it’s not surprising that we see 5G being a competitive…competitive reality with NBN…the failed NBN copper network.
That’s why we’ve got to get more fibre in the ground. Because the truth of it is, a 5G network will not be able to sustain our internet needs for the long run. Fibre to the home, the premise, the kerb. As much fibre as you can get onto the ground. And it is disappointing, I think, that the government who promised this would be finished in 2016, promised 25 megabits, it’s just failing. The multi-mix technology has failed. A proper fibre network would have done the job for Australia, would have future-proofed us into the future. Because mobile relies on fibre as well. The two are complementary, and I believe they could have been complementary. Now it’s up to the government to really… And I’ve welcomed them changing their policy to go to fibre-to-the-curb in some places, but what about all the people that have missed out – that have got copper to the node, and there is now a digital divide?
MITCH FIFIELD
Let me answer.
AMANDA RISHWORTH
It is really, really concerning. And I think it’s a huge missed opportunity that Australia missed by not building that network correctly…
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
I’m just going to pause both of you, because, as I said before, when we get to the topic, it’s always just this endless, you know, “No, your fault.” “No, your fault.” “No, your fault,” which just drives everyone totally bonkers. Missy Higgins, you’re part of a younger generation of people who rely on a network like this all the time. What do you want? What do you want to see, and what do you think Australia would be prepared to pay to build?
MISSY HIGGINS
Look, I mean, I think I share a lot of Australians’ opinion in saying that the NBN has been a bit of a big fat disappointment. I mean, you know, obviously the internet at our house cuts out regularly, and when I was recently writing my new album I did a lot of it via the internet with collaborating with people overseas and interstate, and so I was uploading really big files and want to download really big files, and that was a huge hindrance to that process.
But they’re kind of first-world problems compared to all the regional people in Australia who are using, or trying to use the internet, for a lifeline, sometimes literally. You know, they use it for education, they use it for medical purposes. I mean, a regional doctor might be trying to get…
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Sure.
MISSY HIGGINS
…in contact with a city hospital and not be able to. So, in some cases, it is a matter of life and death.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
OK. Let’s move on to our next question now, and it comes from Hayley Pollock.
SYRIA – AUSTRALIAN INVOLVEMENT 00:12:18
HAYLEY POLLOCK
My question is for Ken Roth. Donald Trump’s recent “mission accomplished” tweet was quite a bold statement. You’ve been known to say that the slaughtering of Syrian civilians won’t stop until President Assad is put in jail. In the meantime, there’s quite a lot of uncertainty around what’s going to happen. What would you say to people like me, who are feeling quite unsettled and afraid of what repercussions we’re going to have with Australia’s involvement?
KEN ROTH
Well, you’re completely right to be worried. I mean, the problem in Syria is that the Assad government, backed by Putin as well as Iran, has chosen to fight this war, you know, not the way the Geneva Conventions prescribe – that is, you know, not by targeting combatants, but actually by targeting the civilians who happen to live in the areas held by the armed opposition. And that’s why we have five-million-plus Syrian refugees. That’s why another six million are displaced within the country. It’s not safe. You know, if you’re living in opposition areas, you get bombed, you get besieged. If the government gets its hands on you, you get detained, tortured and possibly executed.
Now, you know, Trump’s missile barrage addressed a tiny little way that the Assad government kills people. You know, I don’t know what… You know, chemical weapons deaths are probably 1%, if that. You know, most of the time he uses conventional weapons. And it seems that this mission that was accomplished is, you know, to send a signal at least to the folks back home that Trump is not Obama. You know, he’s not going to do nothing. He’s going to do a missile barrage when chemical weapons are used.
In the meantime, the way Putin and Assad kill civilians is mainly with conventional bombs, and effectively they have a green light to continue. So, you know, what can we do to stop that? You know, one thing obviously is to build up the prospect of prosecution. And, you know, fortunately there now is a Syria prosecutor, but Russia keeps vetoing efforts to send Syria to the International Criminal Court.
The other key thing is pressure on Putin. Assad is, in a sense, you know, beyond shaming, he’s beyond redemption. But Putin still cares about his reputation, he cares about his economy, and that’s why it’s absolutely essential to ratchet up the pressure on Putin. And, you know, slowly, people are moving in that direction, but I think far too slowly. And we have the World Cup coming up. I hope nobody attends the opening ceremonies. You know, Putin wants this to be, you know, his big celebration, following a supposed re-election, although it’s really just a selection process. That’s an opportunity to say, “We’re not going to go join your party when you are underwriting mass murder in Syria.” That’s one of the least things that the international community can do.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Tell us a bit more about the pressure, though, that you would like to see put on Russia.
KEN ROTH
Well, you know, I think that there clearly is economic pressure that’s beginning. Interestingly, while no economic pressure is put on responding to, you know, the massive slaughter in Syria, you know, you get one assassination attempt using nerve agents in the UK and, suddenly, the oligarchs are targeted for economic sanctions. Now, he cares about the oligarchs. This is where he parks his money, these are the people who are running the economy. You know, these are his critical partners in his repressive apparatus. So, that’s something that is beginning to hurt. There clearly are other both reputational and political steps that the West can take to make clear that Putin has now moved beyond the pale, and I think that that’s the only way that we’re going to rein in Assad.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Mitch Fifield, do you believe there’s an appetite for that? I mean, that will be…they will be very significant and potentially dangerous steps to take, to take those big steps of pressure against a figure like Vladimir Putin. Is there an appetite for that in the West, and is there an appetite here in Australia for that?
MITCH FIFIELD
Well, the first point to recognise is that Ken is right, that Russia, if they chose to be, could be a positive force. They could have an influence over the Syrian regime. They have tremendous influence. But what we’ve seen, every time we bring resolutions to the United Nations, is Russia vetoes them. We want to try and use those multilateral forums. But Russia, through its use of a veto, has restricted those opportunities, which is why you have seen the United States and the UK and France take the targeted and proportional action that they have.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Hayley’s question, though, went to the disquiet and the anxiety that we might feel here in Australia, particularly given any Australian involvement. What’s your response to Hayley about that?
MITCH FIFIELD
Well, Australia’s involvement in Syria has been focused on ISIL, making sure that we can contain and eliminate and degrade that poisonous organisation, and there’s been quite a degree of success there. Ultimately, in Syria, what we all want to see is a political solution of some sort. It can be hard to direct political solutions in a kinetic way, but, on occasion, you’ve got to say there’s certain activities being undertaken by the regime which cannot go without a response.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
I think, Hayley, you wanted to follow up, if we could. If we’re able to somehow get a… Hayley, we can’t hear you unless we get a microphone to you, but we don’t have one near you at the moment. So let’s try and bring one to you. Go right ahead now. Yeah, go.
HAYLEY POLLOCK
Thank you for your responses. I appreciate the complexity of this issue, and I know that I certainly don’t have the specialised knowledge to sort of weigh in on the politics of it. I think the question that I’m more asking the panel is how does someone who is just a regular Australian citizen manage those anxieties? I know for me, personally, it’s terrifying to think that Australia could become involved and that we could have some sort of retaliation. And it’s more a question of how can we manage those anxieties as a country, because people are really struggling from a mental health point of view with this insane fear.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Hayley, are you talking about fear of perhaps some sort of terrorist reprisal?
HAYLEY POLLOCK
Fear of an attack or fear of the repercussions that could happen if we got involved and we backed the US, or if something happened and, all of a sudden, the Syrian regime turned on us.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Well, we weren’t of course involved in this particular recent strike, but, as the Minister said, we are involved there. Grahame Morris, I’ll get you to respond to Hayley’s question.
GRAHAME MORRIS
Well, I think everyone in the audience and all those listening are also uneasy about where this is going to go. If you come back one, I think anyone who uses chemical weapons, they ought to start war crime proceedings straightaway. I just don’t think anybody nowadays can live with that, hence the strike. Was that strike meant to solve the Syrian problem? No, not at all. It was meant to be a reaction to a mongrel act. And that’s happened.
I think where we’re all uneasy now is we’re not quite sure what the Russians will do. And it’s hard to think what they can do. You know, they can go back to the Security Council, all that sort of… That’s predictable. It’s hard to see how they retaliate, can retaliate, in a sensible, restricted way. The real problem is, what if that regime does it again? Then I think the Americans will get bigger and harder. The French are in there, the Brits are in there, and I think a lot of others will be. And then the Russian reaction is going to be terribly unpredictable. I think we’re lucky we live in this part of the world. The unease I understand, and I think most Australians would share it.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
It’s always a question that confronts us, Minister, whenever we are involved in an overseas and conflict venture like this, what the reprisal might be. Are you, is the government, concerned that there might be some consequence in Australia for our involvement so far?
MITCH FIFIELD
Well, I think, as a government, you’ve always got to take a principled approach when it comes to military engagement, just speaking in general. So, if there’s a wrong that you think needs a response, then you should follow through. If there are people who are being oppressed who need support, then that should be given. The sorts of opportunities which we might face in terms of reprisals, the people who would give effect to those often have an issue with our way of life and our values anyway, and they don’t need the excuse of us being involved beyond our shores to seek to make us a target. So, I think we’ve got to keep those things separate. If there’s something that needs doing, we should do it. If we are going to be a target, well, chances are we would have been anyway.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Thanks, Minister. Next question now comes from Ahmed Zafar Iqbal.
SYRIA – REFUGEES 00:25:50
AHMED ZAFAR IQBAL
Hi. So, my question is for the panel in general, and to Ken Roth in particular. So, in light of the recent Syrian war and the retaliation by France, the United Kingdom and America, it’s very possible, and I feel likely, that the refugee crisis will be exacerbated. How do you feel about… Given the fact that Australia is now on the United Nations Human Rights Council for the first time, do you think Australia should be taking in more refugees and granting a safe haven to more refugees? Thank you.
KEN ROTH
Well, thank you for your question. And, you know, it’s good that you bring up the refugees, because the irony here is that it’s much easier to bomb Syria in response to Assad’s atrocities than it is to welcome in the refugees who are fleeing those atrocities. And we should do the hard thing. We should really open all of our doors. And I say this not just about Australia, but every, you know, wealthy government that has the means should be bringing in far more refugees.
If you look right now, the countries in the region… You know, Lebanon, today, is 25% Syrian refugees. You know, a country of 4 million that has basically 1 million refugees. Turkey has 3.5 million refugees. You know, Jordan has another million or so. I mean, these are not the poorest of countries, but they’re not as wealthy as the West, and they’re carrying an enormous burden. Um, the least we can do, you know, fortunate enough to live in more advanced countries, is to take in more refugees. And not just to take in the Christians. You know, what does that message…? You know? But to take in anybody in need without regard to their religion. So, I’m all for it.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Minister, I’ll come to you next. We’ll hear from all the panel on this, but, Missy Higgins, I wanted to go to you because you’ve actually written a song that comes from the Syrian refugee crisis.
MISSY HIGGINS
Yeah, I wrote a song called Oh Canada, which was about, or inspired by, the photo that was doing the rounds of the world media of Aylan Kurdi, who was a three-year-old Syrian boy who was fleeing his country with his family in order to try and find a safe place to live. And most of us know the story – the boat capsized and the only person surviving from that family was his father, Abdullah Kurdi. And like most people that saw that photo of this thee-year-old boy washed up on a beach in Turkey, I was absolutely devastated, um, because it put a human face to the crisis, you know.
And I think that, a lot of the time, so many of us are so removed from it, and especially with this rhetoric that comes out of the government, calling these people criminals, calling them, you know, um… Even the word ‘asylum seekers’ has a stigma now. So, they come to our shores or they try to reach our shores, and if they get anywhere close, we lock them up in these detention centres that are like prisons. In fact, probably worse than prisons, because these people are indefinitely kept in a place where they’re suffering, like, hugely… They’ve had hugely traumatic experiences and have PTSD beyond belief.
And my father actually volunteers at the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre in Melbourne, and he tells me the most devastating things. He saw a man the other day from Sudan who had scars around his ankle from being hung by his ankles and tortured. And he sees, regularly, patients that have scars all over their bodies from torture. And to think that we can allow these people, who are only seeking a safe place to live… That’s all they wanted. That’s all anybody wants is a safe place to live. Um, to think that we treat them like criminals is just really appalling.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Amanda Rishworth?
AMANDA RISHWORTH
Well, look…I think we can be more generous and we can accept more refugees. We have probably the most significant number of displaced people around the world. And I do agree with Ken – it needs to be non-discriminatory. We need to see every individual based on their circumstance, their fact, the persecution that they have been fleeing from. I think it’s also important, and it goes to the question that was asked before – we cannot work, as a country, in isolation, though. We have to also work through multilateral agencies, whether that’s the UNHCR when it comes to refugees, whether that’s the United Nations.
While, at times, some of those institutions can be not perfect, I think it’s really important that, as a global citizen, not only do we do our bit, but we also participate, we fund, we support those institutions, and that includes aid. That’s aid around the world. We can do better in humanitarian assistance and aid around the world. And, yes, there’ll be a lot of people leaving Syria, but there will be also people on the ground that need our support and help as well.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Just before I go to the minister, is there a figure that the opposition is considering in terms of how we would increase our refugee intake in order to take account of the situation in Syria?
AMANDA RISHWORTH
Well, not directly in relation to Syria, but our policy at the last election was to increase it to 27,000 new, well, refugee…
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
But I meant whether there was a specific focus and specific thought process around Syrian refugees?
AMANDA RISHWORTH
Well, not about Syrian refugees, but I think, if we look across the world, we’re seeing not just Syria – that’s obviously very topical today – but we are seeing humanitarian crisis in many places around the world, and we can be more generous.
KENNETH ROTH
Could I maybe just…
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
I will come back to you, but let me just hear from the Minister, ‘cause the question… I will come back to you as well, Grahame, but the question was whether Australia should be granting more refugees a safe haven in Australia because of the reality of the situation. Do you think that we should?
MITCH FIFIELD
Well, Australia consistently has the second or third most generous humanitarian intake of any country in the world. And that’s been something that’s been the case, whether it be a Coalition government or a Labor government. And I think Australians are very comfortable about that. We also, as you would know, had that additional Syrian intake as well, which is well under way.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Just to jump in there – that’s not complete, is it? That’s coming in quite slowly, it seems.
MITCH FIFIELD
Oh, it’s coming in steadily.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
I think it’s about 12,000, I think. Forgive me if I got the figure wrong. How long will it take until they’re all in the country?
MITCH FIFIELD
Yeah, I can’t give you that figure, but I know…
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
But the reason I raised it is because it seems to be going more slowly than people expect or hope.
MITCH FIFIELD
Yeah, no, I think we’re well under way to meeting that undertaking that we gave. But I don’t think that there’s any inconsistency, just picking up on Missy’s point, between being generous when it comes to the humanitarian intake on the one hand, but also making sure that we have secure borders and that we have policies that are not an encouragement to people smugglers to ply their trade because we know, when they do ply their trade, and they do prey upon vulnerable people, what we see are significant deaths at sea, and none of us want that.
MISSY HIGGINS
But people smugglers are not the problem. I mean, people talk about jumping the queue, but there is no queue when you’re so desperate that you would risk putting your family on a rickety boat to go to an unknown country where you have no guarantee of actually finding a safe haven. If you’re that desperate…
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Grahame Morris, I know you’ve got something to add here, so go ahead.
GRAHAME MORRIS
I’m going to be the odd one out. I’m getting a bit sick of people like Ken, people from overseas, giving us curry about what we should do about refugees, about migrants and about our borders. You know, we’ve got 190,000 people come here each year who are migrants. There are hundreds of thousands of others who queue up, do the right thing, get processed, who want to come here. And, you know, we’re getting lectures from people overseas saying, “Hey, you’ve got to do more.” Well, you know, this is… That some people are less…that people who queue and do the right thing are somehow rather less worthy than people who turn up elsewhere and come in through the back door.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Missy, I’m going to give it to Ken, but very briefly if I can, Ken.
KENNETH ROTH
Yeah, alright. I mean, two points. One – people who queue, who are regular migrants, are one thing. People who are facing death and persecution don’t have the option to queue. They’ve got to get out.
Now, if Australia were serious about trying to save lives at sea, it would set up a processing centre in Indonesia, so nobody would have to get on a boat. They could be processed there.
Last point, in terms of generosity – very quick – let me compare it with Canada. We’re talking about 12,000. I don’t know how long it’s taken to get this 12,000. Justin Trudeau said, “As an emergency measure, we’re going to tack 25,000 on just for our Syrian refugee intake.” It took three months. At the end of that three months… Because Canada has this private placement program, and people were lining up for their private placement and they started complaining, “Where’s my refugee? You ran out of refugees.” And so they increased it to 40,000 in just a matter of months.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
OK. I’m going to leave it there, ‘cause time is tight and I want to hear from some other questioners tonight. So, let’s go to a video question, and that video question comes from Kyle Miers, who’s the president of Deaf Australia. His question is in Australian Sign Language – Auslan – but I’ll read a summary of it so our vision-impaired viewers can understand it as well. Kyle’s concerned about the government’s plans for the National Relay Service, which helps deaf people use the phone system. Have a look.
CUTS TO NATIONAL RELAY SERVICE 00:35:50
KYLE MIERS
In our consultation with yourself and your department, we have repeatedly been advised that there would be no cuts to the NRS services. The current cost of the service is more than $30 million per year, yet the tender has capped the funding to the 2012 amount of just $22 million – this represents a 30% funding cut. With reduction of fund and service provisions, how are you going to ensure that the outcome of the tender results in a service that will truly meet our needs?
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
That question comes from Kyle. Minister, I’ll hand it over to you.
MITCH FIFIELD
Thanks, Virginia. Thanks, Kyle, for the question. We do have an important option for communication, for people who are deaf, or who have a hearing impairment or a speech impairment, called the National Relay Service. It’s something that’s been in place for a long time. It used to be the only communications option for people in those particular circumstances. We now have a wide range of options, many of those free or at no cost by virtue of evolving technology.
What we’re doing is we’re putting to tender the National Relay Service. It has a budget of $22 million, which is what the budget has always been. And we want to make sure that we still have that as an option for people, particularly those people who have a hearing impairment who wish to speak themselves. That’s one of the things about the National Relay Service, is just because you might be deaf, you can speak.
The person at the other end of the line can hear you. They can then speak and a relay officer can then respeak or type what you’ve said, so that the person initiating the call, who might be hearing impaired, can see a text version of what’s been said. It’s an important service and, Kyle, rest assured we will always make sure it has the funds that it needs.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Just very quickly, because I do want to move on to other questions, but what the organisation is most fearful of is that this world-class system that operates 24/7 might actually be cut back, that you might not get 24/7, an ‘all the hours in the day’ service. Can you reassure the community that won’t happen?
MITCH FIFIELD
Sure. Absolutely. As a former minister for disabilities and age care, I will always make sure in my portfolio, with the National Relay Service, that it provides what Australians need.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
OK. We’ve got a response from Kyle. He has responded by SMS. I’ll read it out to you. “The relay service users are relying on your pledge on national television that we will not be worse off as a result of this tender.” So, I’ll just nail that down to the floor here. That’s your pledge?
MITCH FIFIELD
That’s my pledge, Kyle.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
OK, good. Good to hear. Alright, let’s go to our next question, and it comes from Alia Lievore.
CELEBRITIES AND ACTIVISM 00:38:50
ALIA LIEVORE
Missy Higgins, I think it’s great that you use your platform as a musician to make some really powerful political statements, but at the same time, last week, I found myself wishing another person with a platform, Israel Folau, would stick to football and not make social comments when he posted that gay people would go to hell. What role should celebrities have in influencing social and political issues, and how can we engage without being hypocritical?
MISSY HIGGINS
Look, I think if you have a public platform, you’ve been given a gift. And I don’t necessarily think it’s our responsibility to talk up about issues or to be vocal on certain issues, but I think that it is an incredible opportunity. And if we feel passionately about something, I think that it’s just as much our right as it is anybody’s right to speak our mind and for our opinions to be heard. It can be hard sometimes because in this climate, you know, you say one thing and you get 100,000 people barraging you with insults online.
And so you’re definitely making yourself more and more vulnerable. But I think art should be a form of self-expression and I don’t think that we should ever have to self-censor ourselves.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
And that includes Israel Folau and his views?
MISSY HIGGINS
Look, I’m not going to go there.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
But it’s a good question. It’s a really good question about the complexity of that – that it might not always be a view that you like to hear.
MISSY HIGGINS
Yeah. I mean, I can’t speak so much for the sports culture because my field is art. And my thinking around art is that it should be a form of self-expression. And my songs are very much about me expressing something that I feel passionately about. And, you know, I guarantee that probably somebody has already tweeted in “Missy should shut up and sing! Stick to singing,” or something like that.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
More on that later. Spoiler alert. Look, let’s go to our next question.
MISSY HIGGINS
Obviously it’s already happened!
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
No, no, no. The singing I meant.
MISSY HIGGINS
Oh, OK.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
But there you go, now we really have spoiled it. OK. This question might include a few more people and just broadens it out a little bit. It comes from Brian Pierson.
FREEDOM OF RELIGION 00:41:16
BRIAN PIERSON
Yes, my question to the panel is – whilst it’s good to focus on human rights abroad, I’d like to point out that there were 16,000 submissions to Philip Ruddock’s Religious Freedom Review, one of which was my own. So, there’s obviously great concern in our own society for things like religious freedom and freedom of speech. And I’d just like to know what specific laws the panel could recommend that we should pass in Australia, so that people don’t feel threatened when they have a religiously held conviction or a particular point of view.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Grahame Morris, let’s start with you.
GRAHAME MORRIS
We had a vote here which said that the gay community could marry. We did not have a vote that says everyone has to wake up in the morning, including footballers like Folau, and say, “Hey, it’s a good idea to be gay.” I think it was one of the problems with the plebiscite we had. We sort of, “Do you think gay people should marry?” And most people would say yes to that. But then we’d say, “We’ll tell you what that means after the vote.”
And we are now having a couple of inquiries, one held by Philip Ruddock, as to what sort of people should be exempt from that. Now, you could understand the churches should be exempt, that should be a no-brainer. What about a country hall, where the council is a little bit uncomfortable? What about, you know, the silly ones that people raise like the cake-maker and whatnot?
But here we are, after having a vote, we’re now deciding what the vote should mean, and I just think that’s a bizarre way of doing things. Luckily, a fella like Philip Ruddock, who is a very, very decent man and a caring man, I think will get it right. But the electorate and the law-makers will still have to act on this to make sure that people do have some freedom to express some views and to keep their personal views, whether religious or not, and so they should.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Brian, can I just come back to you and ask, do you at the moment feel like you are restrained in expressing yourself?
BRIAN PIERSON
Yes. I think that last year really showed up that Christians were under pressure. The law was used against Julian Porteous in Tasmania. We had people blocked from going to meetings where there was peaceful, law-abiding meetings. There was nothing particularly dramatic going to happen there but there were militant people, they’re entitled to their point of view but they’re not entitled to block people’s right to have their say as well. And I think we need laws to really come down on those people hard, so we continue to live in a society that respectfully handles difference of opinion.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Sure. Amanda Rishworth?
AMANDA RISHWORTH
Well, look, I think we have good laws around human rights in this country. And I think the issue when it comes to rights – you’re talking about the right to express your religion – but there’s the right also to not be discriminated against. So no right is absolute. We live in a community and we live in a democracy where we do have the right to free speech but we don’t have the right to hate speech. So, there are always going to be limitations on some rights because they are protecting other rights.
It’s about getting the balance right, in my mind. We don’t want a place where people can incite violence through hate speech. I don’t want to live in that place, whether it’s against Christians, whether it’s against Muslims, whether it’s against different races. And so no right is absolute in and of itself. You have to look how it interacts with other rights. And the right to live free from discrimination is also another important right. So, we’ve got to look at how these work together and ensure that people have the right to express themselves but also have the right to feel safe and secure in the place where they live.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Ken Roth?
KENNETH ROTH
I think it’s important to understand that religious freedom is about personal beliefs. Nobody can tell you what God to pray to, how you’re going to pray, who you’re going to get together with when you pray. Those are all kind of critical elements of freedom of religion. On the other hand, some people cite freedom of religion to justify mistreating others. And that’s where you have to draw the line. And so, for example, when people say, “I’m not going to bake a cake in my bakery for a gay couple,” that’s bigotry, that’s discrimination, that’s not freedom of religion.
And it’s important to make that clear. I mean, imagine if you said, you know, “In my bakery or my restaurant, I’m not going to serve Aboriginal people because my religion doesn’t permit that. I’m not going to serve Jews, I’m not going to serve Muslims.” You can imagine where this is going to go. So, how we treat other people is a matter for discrimination laws and things of that sort, it’s not a matter of our religious freedom or personal beliefs.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
And just before we move on, very quickly, Minister, we’ve had the Ruddock Review coming down the line. But is there a sense that laws actually need to be changed? That the laws we have at the moment aren’t sufficient?
MITCH FIFIELD
Well, I think you always want to be very careful when you’re seeking to legislate in this area, lest you create a problem that didn’t previously exist, or lest, in trying to fix a problem, you codify something that you don’t want to be acceptable into being accepted. You’ve got to be very careful in this area. And I always think the greatest protection for religious freedom is having a robust and pluralistic democracy where views can be debated openly, where people feel the freedom to put a view, but equally someone else has the freedom to challenge that view.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
OK, let’s go to our next question now, and it comes from Kev Loehndorf.
HIGH TECH ESPIONAGE 00:47:10
KEV LOEHNDORF
Hi. In our new global economy, should the Western world be more concerned about technological and economic espionage from countries like China and Russia than previously? Thank you.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
I think we’ll start with you, Ken Roth, on that one, if we can.
KENNETH ROTH
Sure. Obviously they’re engaging in that espionage. So, yes, you have to worry about that. I think probably a lot of people are doing it, but both the Russians and Chinese are pretty notorious for that. The question is how do you stand up to it and defend against it? There has been a tendency, particularly with China, to feel it’s such a big market that you just have to play along. We faced this with human rights problems as well. Xi Jinping right now, the Chinese President, is consolidating power. It’s probably the most repressive period in China since the Tiananmen Square massacre. But nonetheless, people are reluctant to speak out, because China’s a big market. And I think that this industrial or technological espionage is happening much more so because of this unwillingness to stand up to Chinese misconduct.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Amanda Rishworth?
AMANDA RISHWORTH
Look, there’s currently some laws before the Parliament that the government has introduced around foreign interference, foreign donations, those sorts of things. From the opposition’s perspective, we’re looking very carefully at those. We think there’s a bit of overreach where charities and journalists have been caught up. But ultimately we’ve got to act in our national interest and look at what laws we can introduce to protect against foreign interference. Whether that’s in elections, whether that’s political donations, whether that’s espionage. I think it is a new challenge. A new era that we do face. And we’ve got to make sure that our laws, our security agencies, but also our institutions actually can stand up for our national interest and protect against these new phenomena around the world.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Grahame Morris, you have a long political memory. Has the situation with China, and its demonstrated interference, has it turned into something that surprises you? Could you in your earlier years see this coming down the line?
GRAHAME MORRIS
Well, the answer is not to the extent it has, but from the Prime Minister, the new minister Taylor, our cybersecurity guy, Alastair MacGibbon, they are seeing stuff that’s really got ‘em spooked.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
And private enterprise sees that on a daily basis too.
GRAHAME MORRIS
There have been a number of would-be attacks on various government departments, various government agencies from outside, and it’s really got them worried, and they’re looking at ways at how they tighten it. For example, if a foreign outfit did want to close down our communications network that we’d be talking about, they’re getting blinking close to being able to do it. And they’re trying to work out at the moment, how do we build some sort of cybersecurity wall around us, or at least intelligence, so that we can knock them over when it happens? But it’s becoming prevalent, and it’s got…from the Prime Minister down, it’s got them worried.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Just very quickly, if you can. We have a parallel question on this coming up next which you might want to address too.
MITCH FIFIELD
Well, I guess, going back to the original question, we’ve always had human activity when it comes to espionage. Electronic means gives another avenue for espionage activity. But also we have to be increasingly aware, as Grahame Morris touched on, that we also have non-state actors who seek to disrupt, using electronic means, using online platforms. So we need to be vigilant, not just about the traditional adversaries, but also those who have technology and who aren’t necessarily part of a state organisation.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Now, before we go to our next question, have you sent in your audition to join the Q&A people’s panel? Because these people have.
MAN
I have been an avid follower of Q&A ever since it started 10 years ago.
WOMAN
I watch it pretty much every week. And I’m always boom, boom, boom, boom on Twitter.
MAN
Being on the panel and representing everyday Australians and giving it to the politicians would be…fun.
MAN
I’m capable of being able to look at an issue and acknowledge that most arguments are not black and white.
WOMAN
I’m not afraid to speak my mind.
MAN
People like me have been given platforms on mainstream media in countries like US and UK.
WOMAN
I’m young, I see a lot of people around me struggling with their careers, their finances.
MAN
I became involved with the school’s gay-straight alliance, and as part of that, I actually flew to Melbourne to speak at the launch of the Safe Schools Coalition.
WOMAN
I’d love to discuss disability, but there’s also a lot more to me than just that.
MAN
Now I live and work as a suicide prevention and mental health advocate.
WOMAN
I started off in a small factory town in South Australia. That town’s kind of dying at the moment.
MAN
I believe that young voters such as myself have responsibility to take any opportunity we are given to engage in the political arena.
MAN
I look forward to hearing from you and I look forward to seeing everyday Australians on the panel.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
We have some great candidates, but we want more smart citizens to put up their hands for the people’s panel.
GRAHAME MORRIS
Is there an everyday moderator?
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
I don’t know. We’ll see. If Tony Jones is well enough, maybe he can fulfil that role. But we need men, women, Indigenous Australians, African Australians, Asian and European Australians. In short, we need everybody. So it doesn’t matter where you’re from, as long as you have something to say. So go to our website to find out how to send in your video audition and join the Q&A people’s panel. May even be interested in you, Grahame, for that.
Our next question comes from Liu Yifan.
CHINA/OZ TENSIONS 00:52:48
LIU YIFAN
As a Chinese student, I really care about the relationship between Australia and China. But the relationship now seems slightly tense. How does the Australian government intend to ease tensions with China?
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
It’s the bookend question to our previous question. It’s perfectly phrased. Thank you. Minister, we will start with you.
MITCH FIFIELD
Sure. Thanks for the question. We have a really good relationship with China. As you know, it’s an important trading partner. We have two-way trade of about $175 billion a year. And we have very close people-to-people links. We have good business relationships with China. But from time to time, in any mature bilateral relationship, there will be issues that emerge where the two governments have a different perspective. And what we have to do is just work those through, with respect, as they arise.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Amanda Rishworth?
AMANDA RISHWORTH
Well, look, I don’t think China would have a problem with us acting in our national interests, but I’ve been concerned about some of the rhetoric that has come from the government around the Bennelong by-election, for example, which did seem to inflame tensions within the Chinese Australian community. So, look, I, and certainly Labor has been concerned about the way and the rhetoric that the government’s been engaged in over the last little while.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
OK. Now, there’s time for one last question. And it comes from Matt Needham.
SINGING AND POLITICS 00:54:38
MATT NEEDHAM
Missy Higgins, this evening you’ve been talking about issues…
MISSY HIGGINS
Oh, you need a microphone.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Sorry. We don’t have a microphone to you, sorry. Let’s start again. There we go.
MATT NEEDHAM
Missy Higgins, this evening you’ve been talking about issues, and you also sing about issues.
MISSY HIGGINS
Mm-hm.
MATT NEEDHAM
Do you think the…sort of sung lyrics are more powerful than the spoken word and, therefore, are you more influential than our politicians? Or should our politicians sing in…?
MISSY HIGGINS
I bloody wish!
AMANDA RISHWORTH
I can’t sing, so…
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Just in case you didn’t hear the last part of that question, Matt asked whether our politicians should sing in Parliament.
AMANDA RISHWORTH
(LAUGHS) No.
MISSY HIGGINS
Yeah, none of us would like to hear that. Oh, God, it depends who’s doing the singing and who’s doing the talking, really, doesn’t it? Like, I…
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Is the sung phrase…? Maybe to your mind it is. Is the sung phrase more powerful than the spoken one?
MISSY HIGGINS
I mean, I could listen to Obama speak for hours on end and I think that would be much more powerful than Britney Spears singing “Ooh, baby, baby, hit me one more time.”
MISSY HIGGINS
Then again…
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
I think it depends on the, um, circumstances you’re in.
MISSY HIGGINS
That’s true. But, you know, this show has been going for, what is it, 55 minutes, and I’m about to sing a four-minute song. So we can see how this show has prioritised things this evening.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Ooh! Ouch! She got me. Again.
MISSY HIGGINS
We’ll let the audience make up their own minds on that one.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Ken, singing versus speaking? Can you sing, by the way?
KENNETH ROTH
No. And I’m not going to attempt it.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Excellent.
KENNETH ROTH
I know my place.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Which is more powerful?
KENNETH ROTH
But, you know, I… I mean, I very much believe in celebrities using their…you know, their platform to speak out, and obviously it’s not always for a good cause. But overall, I think it’s a very important way of reaching the general public. Politicians tend to speak to elite audiences too often and musicians have a way of getting to the whole public, which matters in this world.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
And if your Prime Minister can remember the words to the song, you know, they can sort of, you know…
MITCH FIFIELD
Virginia, in all seriousness, I think there are few things that connect as directly to the soul as does a song. So there is something very powerful about a song.
GRAHAME MORRIS
I think I could prove it. My children listen to you, Missy, much more often than they listen to me.
MISSY HIGGINS
Than they listen to you.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
That’s just as it should be, Grahame, I think. Before we move on, can you sing?
MITCH FIFIELD
I can hold a tune.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Oh, can you?
MITCH FIFIELD
But you won’t find out tonight.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
And Amanda Rishworth, you’ve just bailed out on this one.
AMANDA RISHWORTH
Look, I cannot sing, and that would be really bad. But look, I mean, I have reflected on some of the songs that have just inspired me, and Kev Carmody’s From Little Things Big Things Grow still gives me shivers down my spine when I hear that. And I think, in a lot of ways, what songs can do is they can sum up a feeling, sum up a moment, which I’m afraid I’m not sure us politicians can.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
Is there no Parliament House choir?
AMANDA RISHWORTH
There is actually. Yes.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
And you’ve not joined?
AMANDA RISHWORTH
No, I’m not in it.
MITCH FIFIELD
I think they’re currently defunct.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI
I think it might be time to revive the Parliament House choir.
That’s all we have time for tonight. Please thank our marvellous panel – Kenneth Roth, Mitch Fifield, Missy Higgins, Grahame Morris and Amanda Rishworth. Thank you.
Missy, that’s your cue. Alright, so Missy is going to head off to where she needs to be.
You can continue the discussion with Q&A Extra on NewsRadio and Facebook Live, where Tracey Holmes is joined by Sacha Molitorisz from New York University and the University of Technology at Sydney. Next Monday on Q&A, Labor’s Assistant Treasury spokesman Andrew Leigh, social researcher Jill Sheppard, who has identified six social classes in our supposedly classless nation, the executive director of the Institute for Public Affairs, John Roskam, and author, broadcaster and social analyst, Rebecca Huntley. And Tony Jones better be here for that.
We’ll leave you tonight with Missy Higgins performing 49 Candles from her latest album, Solastalgia. I’ll be back on 7.30 tomorrow night. And Q&A, I’ll be here sometime soon, I hope, as well. Goodnight.