TRANSCRIPT
Of
SENATOR MITCH FIFIELD
Sky News AM Agenda
Ashleigh Gillon & Senator Mark Arbib
10 November 2008
8:30am
E & OE
SUBJECTS: Automotive industry assistance, ABC Learning, G20, budget deficits, New Zealand election, Therese Rein
ASHLEIGH GILLON:
Welcome to AM Agenda. Well today the Government will announce an assistance package to the car industry worth around $3 billion. Joining me to discuss the ramifications and details of the package to be announced this morning by the Prime Minister, I’m joined by our panelists the Labor Senator Mark Arbib the Liberal Senator Mitch Fifield. Thank you both for joining us.
SENATOR MITCH FIFIELD:
Good morning.
SENATOR MARK ARBIB:
Great to be here.
GILLON:
Senator Arbib, the car industry has been struggling for years. Last year car makers posted a $450 million loss here. How can the Government prop up the industry, justify proppoing up the industry with some $3 billion? Could it be time to say ‘enough is enough?’
ARBIB:
Well auto-makers everywhere are struggling everywhere at the moment. It’s not just locally. They’re struggling globally. If you look at some of the sales that are happening in the United States and Europe it’s just cataclysmic. This is a hugely important industry for this country. There’s no doubt about it. We’re not just talking about jobs, we’re talking about industry and manufacturing. And we can’t afford to lose any more in that sector. The Bracks Report came out, I think it was almost two months ago now. It’s put forward a direction and a clear vision for the country and for our auto-makers. Steve Bracks talks about reducing tariffs from 10 down to 5, which is something which started with the Hawke-Keating Government in the 80s and something that the Government hopefully will continue. But in terms of the industry there needs to be a package to ensure that they can continue to compete and continue to produce. And we’re also talking about money for research and development to ensure that they’re at the cutting edge, not just for this country globally, and also so they can start moving into the areas of fuel efficiency and green cars.
GILLON:
Senator Fifield does the Opposition support all of this money heading towards the car industry, or is this idea that Australians need to be able to make cars here at home simply an outdated concept?
FIFIELD:
We haven’t seen the package. We’ll have to wait and examine the details. But this Government does not have a good track record when it comes to doing its due diligence on investment in the automotive industry. We saw earlier this year the Government spent $35 million, gave it to Toyota for the hybrid car. Now the sole purpose of that was a photo opportunity because the Prime Minister and Kim Carr were in Japan and they needed something to announce. There was no due diligence done. But I think one of the important benchmarks to apply to this package when we see it will be does it add to the productive capacity of the nation? Or does it merely subsidise inefficiency? I think that’s one of the key benchmarks to apply to the package. But it’s also important to bear in mind that the biggest hit that the automotive industry has taken under this Government was one that this Government actually inflicted through the rushed and bungled bank security package. This Government basically destroyed the automotive finance sector in this nation. So we now have car dealers in Australia who are looking at bankruptcy because they can’t get the finance to put the cars on the showroom floor. And that was a direct result of the policy of this Government.
ARBIB:
That is ridiculous.
GILLON:
We’ll get back to the bank deposit issue in a minute, but just going back for a minute to the green car issue. Should car manufacturers be given extra subsidies for this if they’re moving towards producing these sorts of cars anyway? I think with that example that Senator Fifield mentioned before with Toyota, they said later that they were planning to go down that path of producing green cars in Australia regardless of the subsidies. Does this fund need to be doubled as suggested in the Bracks Report?
ARBIB:
Well let’s wait and see today. I mean the Prime Minister’s making the announcement I can’t double-guess what’s gonna be in the report. But the industry also talks about the assistance it needs to survive and they’re pretty clear about that. They’ve looked at the report, they say they need more assistance than what the Bracks Report is actually putting forward. So that shows how dire the situation is. There are thousands of jobs that could be lost. But also, I mean Australia needs to have a manufacturing base. If we give up on manufacturing, well in the end, we’re just going to be a quarry and a beach for tourists. But that is something that we have to fully put resources into, so I support the package.
FIFIELD:
Even though you don’t know what’s in it?
ARBIB:
Well, no no, because I think the Prime Minister knows Mitch. I don’t know I’m not in the Cabinet mate. I have no way of knowing.
FIFIELD:
I like to see things before I give my support, but that’s just me.
GILLON:
Senator Arbib, you mentioned job losses. Now unions are warning that if the tariffs are cut from 10% to 5% by the year 2010 which everybody is expecting to happen that there will be thousands of jobs lost in this industry. This is of course something that will be a real risk especially considering that we’re looking at unemployment rates rising over the next couple of years anyway.
ARBIB:
Tariff reduction is something that the Hawke-Keating Government was committed to, the Howard Government was committed to and the Rudd Government is committed to. It’s something that both parties believe bipartisanly. In terms of tariff reduction though, we have seen some major major benefits for this country and the worst thing we could be doing now going into a global financial, you know it could be a global financial recession, is to put up the barriers. That would be a terrible thing. If we start putting up the barriers now what message will we be sending to countries around the world? And if the United States puts up its barriers…
FIFIELD:
I’m with you.
ARBIB:
…look at this we’re together on an issue. I can’t believe it. If the United States puts up its barriers then you wait and see what happens to local industry here. It will shut down.
GILLON:
Because that is a big concern isn’t it Senator Fifield, that with Barack Obama being elected that he may be implementing some more protectionist policies and in particular in terms of manufacturing and bringing jobs in the car industry back on to American soil?
FIFIELD:
It’s a great concern and particularly with a Democrat-dominated Congress there’s going to be tremendous pressure on President-elect Obama to not only maintain their trade barriers but to increase them. That would be disastrous for us if that happened.
GILLON:
Okay let’s just move onto another issue around today, that is the ABC Learning bailout that we saw the Government commit to last week. Malcolm Turnbull has questioned the long-term viability of the Government’s plan to do that. But today on ABC2 he insisted that this is a plan that has bipartisan support. Let’s have a look.
MALCOLM TURNBULL:
We support the Government taking the necessary steps to ensure as they have said they’ve done, they’ve said $22 million is the sum, to keep these centres open and give mothers and fathers the certainty about child care services being available through to the end of the year and we support that. I repeat it. We support it. However, taxpayers are entitled to know how that money is being spent.
GILLON:
Malcolm Turnbull went on to say that there are reports today that the receivers involved in this case have said they don’t know how they’re going to spend that $22 million. Is it a bit pre-emptive of the Government to step in and provide that money without knowing how it’s going to be spent?
ARBIB:
Well it’s good to see Malcolm Turnbull is now supporting the $22 million…
FIFIELD:
He always has.
ARBIB:
…because yesterday in the paper he wasn’t supporting it.
FIFIELD:
No, he was.
ARBIB:
…so it’s good to see oh he was…
FIFIELD:
He was. Always has been.
ARBIB:
…it’s good to see he’s actually supporting, bipartisan support on childcare now. The $22 million is critical. I mean there is 120,000 kids in these childcare centres. If these centres close, I mean it’s gonna be a huge problem for working families and parents. Where are they gonna find the childcare in such a short time? Look at the effect it’s going to have on the economy in terms of $22 million now. Imagine if 120,000 kids don’t have a childcare centre.
GILLON:
I think everybody agrees with that. I think the point Malcolm Turnbull is raising is we’re not sure exactly where this money is going and it is a substantial amount of course.
ARBIB:
Well it’s going to keeping the centres afloat until the end of the year and hopefully between then and now the receivers will be able to find a way forward, either a buyer or another option, and obviously Julia Gillard is working closely with them. But this just shows exactly, it really shows what Malcolm Turnbull’s about. You’ve got to really listen to what Malcolm Turnbull says. He is a very very clever politician. He’s very clever. At times though he’s too smart and he always says ‘well, I’ll give you bipartisan support’ and then he goes out and attacks you at the same time. I mean he sends out all his minions, sends out all his shadow ministers, exactly what Mitch did today…
FIFIELD:
…it’s called being a responsible opposition.
ARBIB:
…but it is being way too smart and with Malcolm Turnbull, he is very very clever, but don’t…
FIFIELD:
It’s doing what the public expect of an opposition. Asking appropriate questions.
ARBIB:
…don’t judge Malcolm Turnbull on his words, judge him on his actions.
GILLON:
What’s your take on this Senator?
FIFIELD:
Well we have always supported this $22 million package. It’s important that there is continuity for families and for children. That they know when Monday morning came that the childcare centre would be open. So of course we support that. But we’re an opposition and we can support the policy intent of a government announcement but at the same time do our job, what the public expect of us. Which is to ask questions of detail, to ask questions, to keep the Government accountable. To make sure that the Government implement well what they’ve undertaken to do. But I’ve also got to reject Julia Gillard’s comments over the last few days where she said that the Opposition, when we were in government, that we let the market run wild in this sector. What we did was we increased the subsidy for childcare and we massively increased the number of childcare places. And the expansion in this sector wasn’t driven by the government, it was driven by the consumers. We set up a system which enabled those who needed childcare to get childcare. And unfortunately ABC is in great difficulty. Businesses are in great difficulty sometimes. It’s not the previous government’s fault. We do support this measure which is in place, the $22 million, regardless of what the Government say. But we’re going to continue to ask questions.
GILLON:
I’m sure you will. Of course this week economic management is set to be the issue again of course throughout question time this week. Wayne Swan won’t be here. He’s been at a finance ministers’ meeting in Brazil. Yesterday he said the meeting has given him confidence in the world’s economy. Let’s have a look.
WAYNE SWAN:
Well the financial crisis is having a dramatic impact on world growth. We’ve seen that in the latest World Bank report. What all of that makes clear is that what governments need to do is take a range of actions across fiscal policy, monetary policy, stabilisation of the financial system and then for the long run putting in place the necessary reforms to ensure that we don’t experience an event like this ever again.
GILLON:
The Prime Minister will soon join Wayne Swan in Washington. They’ll be attending this G20 meeting. It’s now been revealed that it looks like Senator, President-elect Obama won’t be attending that meeting. Some of his advisers will. Can much be achieved without Senator Obama’s presence do you think Senator Arbib?
ARBIB:
Yeah I think a lot can be achieved and the G20 is a great forum to do it in. And listening to what Wayne Swan has been saying in terms of the media just then but also in terms of his speech which he’s now given, I think, we’ve got a serious serious problem ‘cos not only are you seeing growth in the developed countries slowing right down, you look at the latest IMF figures, you’re talking about recession in the United States, recession in the UK, recession in Japan and most of Europe. You’re also seeing now figures for a major slowdown in developing countries. And that was the thing we were always focussed on, that if developing countries like China and India held their growth rates then we would be okay, but now we’re seeing major slowdowns there. Today we saw the Chinese government put in place a stimulus package of $871 billion. $871 billion, that’s 16% of their GDP, our stimulus package is 1% of the GDP. But what Wayne Swan has been saying importantly is we need governments around the world to be doing that. To not just be using monetary policy, they also need to be using fiscal policy to stimulate their economies.
FIFIELD:
Are you going to take us into deficit?
ARBIB:
Well no, that’s not what we’re saying. But Mitch I don’t see anything wrong with deficits. Deficits are the automatic stabilisers in any economy. And in terms, if you ask me if we’re facing a serious serious recession, well I’d say go into deficit any day of the week to keep us out of a serious recession.
GILLON:
Senator Fifield, a lot of economists are saying that. That this is now the time to go into deficit, if ever, this is what it’s there for.
FIFIELD:
Well I’ve heard Labor say what we said in government which is that we want to be in balance on average over the course of the economic cycle. That’s something we said in government and something this government says. And I’ve been trying to work out what the current government actually mean by that because we have some Labor ministers saying that we’re definitely going to be in surplus and others saying ‘well, we’ll probably go into deficit and it mightn’t be a bad thing if we did.’ But I think I’ve actually worked out what Labor mean. What they mean is that when they’re in government they can run deficits. When the Coalition is in government, we’ll run surpluses, and that’s how you net it out over the economic cycle. That’s the Labor plan. They run deficits, we run surpluses. That’s the Labor policy.
GILLON:
Well we have a Labor Senator right here, so you can do our interpretation here Mark Arbib.
ARBIB:
I think you’re thinking a bit too much Mitch.
FIFIELD:
No no.
ARBIB:
The position is clear. The MYEFO figures, the mid-year figures show that we’re going to be in surplus. But what I’m saying at the same time is, and you asked me a question Mitch, if you’re talking about a serious recession, you’ve got a global recession on the way, I don’t think there is any problem with governments around the world going into deficit. Because that’s what deficits and surpluses are about. We should be doing everything possible to ensure we do not have a serious serious downturn here and if that means going into deficit well I don’t see a problem with that. But at the same time as that, the Government has said…
FIFIELD:
At a time that you’re forecasting the economy…
ARBIB:
Hang on a sec Mitch, hang on a sec. The Government has said in the MYEFO figures that there will be surpluses.
GILLON:
That could change of course. We’re all expecting that.
ARBIB:
The thing about this global financial crisis is the figures are moving and the events are moving so quickly. No one really knows where this could end up. That is why what the G20 is doing is very smart and why Wayne Swan is right on the money when he says governments need to be using both monetary policy and fiscal policy to really stimulate the economy. Working together. They’ve got to get them working in one direction.
GILLON:
Final take on this before we head to a break.
FIFIELD:
Sure. What Mark didn’t mention is that this Government, their own forecasts are forecasting that the Australian economy is going to grow. I could understand the Government talking about the need to go into deficit if they were forecasting that we were going to go into recession, if they were forecasting negative growth, but they’re actually forecasting that the economy is going to grow. Now if it’s going to grow…
ARBIB:
We all hope it does.
FIFIELD:
…then there’s no excuse for this government going into deficit. If they do go into deficit then it means they’re managing the budget very very badly.
ARBIB:
We no one is saying that. The MYEFO figures are clear. We’re talking about surpluses going forward. Okay so Mitch I know you’re trying to gild the lily there but the figures are clear…
FIFIELD:
I’m just trying to work out what the Government’s position is.
ARBIB:
…and the growth figures are there. But at the same time as that…
FIFIELD:
Are you for a surplus or for a deficit?
ARBIB:
…I know you guys, I know we’re bipartisan on the economy…
GILLON:
We’re going to hear a lot more about this in question time today no doubt. For now though we’ll go to a very quick break. We’ll be back with our politicians panel very shortly.
Break
Welcome back to AM Agenda. Well over the weekend we saw a change in government in New Zealand. Here’s the Prime Minister’s reaction to that yesterday.
KEVIN RUDD:
The great thing about the Australia-New Zealand relationship is it really goes beyond party politics. We’ve committed afresh to building this important relationship for both of us. I’ve also invited John to visit Australia at the earliest opportunity and for him to undertake an official state visit. I think that’d be a great opportunity to begin their new period in our relationship.
GILLON:
And here’s the Opposition frontbencher Joe Hockey saying he thinks the new New Zealand Prime Minister John Key is very similar to Malcolm Turnbull. Let’s have a look.
JOE HOCKEY:
People are prepared to invest in leaders who have proven attributes. Malcolm Turnbull is a proven performer in his own life. He’s been very successful starting with little and gaining much, but he’s prepared to make a contribution to the community by engaging in politics. And so too the new Prime Minister of New Zealand. Someone who has made his own money, proven his own worth as a successful business person…
GILLON:
Well we saw there Joe Hockey hoping that Malcolm Turnbull will follow the same path as John Key perhaps. But you would think that this wouldn’t have too much of an impact in terms of Australia’s relationship with New Zealand. Of course it’s likely to remain pretty solid no matter the Prime Minister, Senator Fifield?
FIFIELD:
Yes, our relationship with New Zealand is closer than any we have with any other nation on earth, which is as it should be. We have a common history, we’ve fought together, we’re very close neighbours. So I don’t think that the change of government there will have an impact on the bilateral relationship. But it’s interesting that what’s happened in New Zealand, I think it’s partly a function of a government which failed to renew in office, something which we know a little bit about on our side of politics…
ARBIB:
Self analysis by Mitch. I can’t believe it! This is fantastic to see! The Liberals are finally learning some lessons from the past.
FIFIELD:
Of course we have. Of course we have.
ARBIB:
Times have changed.
FIFIELD:
But also I think it was a bit of a reaction in New Zealand against the growing nanny state. New Zealand under the previous Prime Minister there really became a little bit of Scandinavia in the southern hemisphere. So I think it was also a bit of a reaction against that.
GILLON:
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd can work with a conservative leader, Mark Arbib, that’s not going to be an issue?
ARBIB:
I’m sure he can. There’s no doubt about it. We’ve got a very strong relationship with New Zealand and that will continue. I mean I will pick you up though on something about Helen Clark. I think Helen Clark’s legacy, you look at what she did in terms of the FTAs. I mean she was one of the few countries that went out there and was able to achieve a free trade agreement with China. And in terms of improving relations with the United States, I mean she’s got a strong legacy to leave. She’s done very well. Long term government, she’d been there for 9 years in that position. It is very hard. And with the global financial crisis at the moment it is extremely hard for incumbents anywhere. So I’d hate to have to fight an election right now.
GILLON:
Changing tack completely. You would have both seen the story yesterday in the Sunday Telegraph claiming that Malcolm Turnbull had complained that he’d been snubbed by the Prime Minister’s wife Therese Rein. Today Mr Turnbull denied that strenuously let’s have a look.
TURNBULL:
The suggestion that I had criticised or complained about Therese Rein was a complete invention. We published the transcript yesterday. There was an interview with Clinton Porteous of the Courier Mail and it speaks for itself. He asked me whether I had a social relationship, whether Lucy and I had a social relationship with Mr Rudd and his wife and I said we didn’t.
GILLON:
As Malcolm Turnbull said there his office did put out a full transcript on the interview that has been the subject of this newspaper report. What seemed to be correctly reported though is that Mr Turnbull has concerns that he and Mr Rudd aren’t exactly on speaking terms. That they don’t talk at all according to Mr Turnbull. That doesn’t seem very conducive to a productive bipartisan relationship Mark Arbib?
ARBIB:
But this just shows the real Malcolm Turnbull. I mean this guy thinks the world revolves around him and that Kevin Rudd should be coming up to him at functions and getting his views and talking to him…
FIFIELD:
Hardly.
ARBIB:
…I mean Kevin Rudd has a job to do. He is the Prime Minister of the country. He’s trying to run the country. Malcolm Turnbull thinks we all should just be listening to him, he’s some sort of supreme being and we should all be listening to him.
GILLON:
He is the Opposition Leader, he’s not a lowly backbencher.
FIFIELD:
The Government would’ve done better if they’d listened to Malcolm on a number of policy issues earlier.
ARBIB:
Oh no, we should listen to Malcolm on everything. It’s good that over the weekend we saw Malcolm Turnbull doing a number of interviews, he hasn’t been doing one-on-one media interviews and now he’s started again which is fantastic. ‘Cos what we’re seeing is the real Malcolm Turnbull starting to emerge. The real Malcolm Turnbull that Mitch voted against and people like Mitch that, um, Nick Minchin were so worried about, coming out, is starting to emerge
FIFIELD:
The public are liking the Malcolm Turnbull that they’re seeing at the moment.
ARBIB:
The cracks are starting to emerge. That’s true, because Malcolm Turnbull…
FIFIELD:
There are no cracks.
ARBIB:
…Malcolm Turnbull is the ultimate politician. He is, you know, he is very very clever. The problem is he’s too smooth and he says one thing, this is the thing…
FIFIELD:
Can I roll my eyes at this point Ashleigh?
GILLON:
It sounds like the old “Mr Howard is a clever politician” line.
ARBIB:
…he says one thing but you’ve got to look at his actions. Can I just get you on a couple of things on this? Bipartisanship. He says ‘we want to be bipartisan on the economy.’ Then he sends everybody out to start attacking the Government. He says we’re over-egging the global financial crisis, he then moves his own money out of a mortgage trust to make sure it’s secure. I mean this is a guy, do not listen to what he’s saying, judge him by his actions.
GILLON:
Okay, Senator Fifield final word on that.
FIFIELD:
Well on bipartisanship on the economy the Government told us to ‘get nicked’ so that’s a bit rich coming from the Government.
ARBIB:
Well why don’t you pass the alcopop tax in the Senate? Bipartisanship.
FIFIELD:
But in relation to the Therese Rein matter, I’m usually a great defender of the quality of journalism in Australia but I’ve got to say that was a complete fabrication. I looked very closely at the transcript of the interview Malcolm had and there was no reference, no reference at all that was adverse about Therese Rein.
ARBIB:
So the journalist was wrong?
FIFIELD:
Well Mark I suggest you look at the transcript because if you look at the transcript you will see that it in no way backs up the report.
ARBIB:
Inaudible.
FIFIELD:
It was a complete fabrication and I think that has been widely accepted by the press gallery now.
GILLON:
Okay we do need to wrap up the show. Mark Arbib and Mitch Fifield thank you both for joining us again, we’ll see you next Monday.
FIFIELD:
Thank you.
ARBIB:
Thanks Ashleigh.